David P. Boder Interviews Yanusch Deutsch; August 27, 1946; Genève, Switzerland

var transcription = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] Geneva, August the 27th, 1946, at the ORT School of Mechanics, the interviewee is Yanusch Deutsch, now seventeen and a half. That is a tall, good-looking and neat-looking young man, and we shall interview him on his experiences during the war.

David Boder

[In German] Also, Herr Deutsch, uh,

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja?

David Boder

Sagen Sie mal, wo waren Sie, wenn der Krieg anfangen, anfing, und was ist Ihnen wÃhrend des Krieges passiert?

Yanusch Deutsch

Als der Krieg ausgebrochen ist, ich war in Ungarn. Ich habe in einem, mit meinen Eltern in einem kleinen StÃdtâ, Stadt gewohnt, nicht weit von Budapest. 60 km von Budapest.

David Boder

Wie viele Leute waren in Ihrer Familie?

Yanusch Deutsch

Also meine Eltern, die sind alleine.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, war ich auch da.

David Boder

Ja. Nun, was war Ihren Eltern BeschÃftigung?

Yanusch Deutsch

Mein Vater ist Architekt Ingenieur.

David Boder

Ja. Wo ist Ihr Vater jetzt?

Yanusch Deutsch

In der Schweiz.

David Boder

In der Schweiz.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und er arbeitet als Ingenieur.

David Boder

Ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und, mein Vater hat ein BÃro . . .

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und wir konnten ruhig leben bis 1944.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Die [unverstÃndlich; irgendetwas mit âArchitekt-â? ] war nicht so groà in Ungarn, wir konnten dort ruhig leben.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und wir haben die Nachrichten gehÃrt von Deutschland und von die besetzten Zonen, wo die Deutschen waren. Was, was fÃr schreckliche Sachen die mit die Juden gemacht haben. Wir haben nie gedacht, dass die selbe mit uns auch passieren kann.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

In Â44, 20 MÃrz haben die Deutschen Ungarn erobert.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Hat Ãberhaupt kein Gegenstand [Anm.: er meint âWiderstandâ]

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und die Judâ, die Deutschen haben sofort natÃrlich MaÃnahmen gegen die Juden gemacht.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja, Stern und so [unverstÃndlich]

David Boder

[english?]

Yanusch Deutsch

jeder Land ist die selbe. [unverstÃndlich] in Deutschland gemacht hat nur sehr, sehr viel schneller.

David Boder

Also zum Beispiel was hat man gemacht? Vergessen wir, dass wir das wissen.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja, also, [unverstÃndlich]

David Boder

Wie hat man das annonciert, dass man die Sterne tragen [er meint: soll]?

Yanusch Deutsch

ZwÃlf Tage nach die deutschen

David Boder

[unverstÃndlich]

Yanusch Deutsch

Ungarn Ãberfallen,

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

sind, Ãh, in Zeitung Artikel gekommen, dass die Juden, Ãh, sechs, also Magen David tragen mÃssen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

10 Zentimeter groà aus gelbe, gelbe

David Boder

Stoff?

Yanusch Deutsch

Stoff.

David Boder

Ja, aus gelbem Stoff.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja, gelbem Stoff.

David Boder

Und wo hat man die bekommen? Hat man die verkauft, oder?

Yanusch Deutsch

Wir mussten selbst machen und jÃdische HÃndler, jÃdische also GeschÃftsleute haben es verkauft.

David Boder

Haben es verkauft?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

Was haben sie dafÃr genommen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, ich weià nicht, 20, 30 Drachmen, also . . .

David Boder

20, 30 Drachmen. Man hat . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

[unterbricht] Meistens nichts, meistens Ãberhaupt nichts, weil sie haben doch gewusst, dass wir haben nicht mehr lange GeschÃft, und warum sollen sie doch verdienen.

David Boder

Ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und dann es ist sehr schnell weitergegangen. Zuerst mussten die GeschÃftsleute ihre GeschÃfte zusperren.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und dann mussten sie Fotoapparate, Radioapparate, Schreibmaschinen, [unklar; evtl. âKleinodenâ], alles abgeben.

David Boder

[unverstÃndlich]

Yanusch Deutsch

[unverstÃndlich]

David Boder

Ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und dann mussten wir sofort alle Gold und, wie sagt man, âjewelryâ?

David Boder

Schmucksachen.

Yanusch Deutsch

Schmucksachen abgeben. Und Geld, was wir in Bank gehabt haben, wir haben gespart und Ãberhaupt kein von dem haben wir davon bekommen kÃnnen.

David Boder

Parlieren [evtl. âProbierenâ] Sie Englisch, die Aussprache macht nichts, gehen Sie weiter.

Yanusch Deutsch

[In English] . . . I'll try. But it was not only this loss against us but the German SS soldiers came every day and they asked us . . . Do you know that in every town there was a Judenrat [Jewish Council]âthere were JudenrÃte with Judenalteste. And they came every day and they asked us food . . . [break in tape] . . . jewels, everything they liked.

David Boder

Who? The Judenrat?

Yanusch Deutsch

From the Judenrat, the SS soldiers and the Judenratâit was the duty of the Judenratâto get these things.

David Boder

Oh. The SS came to the Judenrat?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

And the Judenrat had to go to the Jews . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

. . . to get it. Nu. All right. That's very good. Go ahead.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. And after two month and a half who had to go to the ghetto.

David Boder

Now how was that?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well in all town it was like that. First we had to leave . . . there were only some houses for the Jews and on the door of these houses there wasâwere a big gold star.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

A yellow star.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we were living in our flat twenty-four persons. Before [unintelligible] we had four rooms and we lived there twenty-four persons.

David Boder

So they left you in your flat . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

But who got you the twenty-four persons? Who told you to take in the twenty-four persons?

Yanusch Deutsch

The SS soldiers told the Judenrat on Monday that for Friday they did had these housesâI think it was hundred and twenty housesâand they must get there . . . still Friday evening.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And it was very difficult business because we hadn't had any car and we had to take the furnitures ourselves.

David Boder

So you had to move out from your . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

No. Fortunately we didn't move outâthen. We lived that for one week. You can imagine that..

David Boder

That you took in other people?

Yanusch Deutsch

Other . . . twenty-one persons. [speaking over each other] We were twenty-four. Well you can imagine it because . . .

David Boder

Well . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . twenty-four people . . . brought with them their furnitures and their things and the flat was crowded and we couldn't move and we had only one kitchen and there were five or six familieâ, families.

David Boder

Yes. And how many rooms did you have?

Yanusch Deutsch

Four big rooms.

David Boder

What?

Yanusch Deutsch

Four.

David Boder

Four rooms and a kitchen.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Yes. Nu.

Yanusch Deutsch

And, for instance, my mother and Iâand meâslept in the kitchen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

And they were cooking in the kitchen all day and night. We were cooking from eight o'clock until ten o'clock, other families from ten o'clock until twelve . . .

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . other families in the afternoon. So we lived there for one week. We knew . . . we knew that they would deport us and we had to get some food and we wanted to eat it very quickly.

David Boder

All right.

Yanusch Deutsch

And, one morning . . .

David Boder

You said you wanted to eat your food as quick as possible because you knew that what?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, it very good things [?] and we were . . . I can say we were then happy. It was the last happy days of my life.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

And one morning, suddenly, at four o'clock German soldiers came in our house and they ordered the men in the yard . . . on the yard.

David Boder

Ja. Only the men?

Yanusch Deutsch

Only the men. And they told them that they would give us one hour. In one hour we must move out. We can take with us thirty kilos of baggages.

David Boder

Each person?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Ja. How old were you then?

Yanusch Deutsch

I was then fifteen years old . . . and some months. Well, you can imagine we hadn't had much time. We had to clotheâto dress ourselvesâand we take some food and some clothes and everything we knewâeverything we knew it would be useful. Then they take us on the yard and they . . . how do you say in English [German phrase]?

David Boder

And they searched you?

Yanusch Deutsch

They searched us. They took the good things away from us: the chocolate, the coffee, the sugar . . . confiture [jam], the jam, and we remained with very little baggages.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then we had to remain there from six o'clock in the morning until two o'clock in the night.

David Boder

In the yard?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. It was [great fun?].

David Boder

The men alone or everybody?

Yanusch Deutsch

Everybodyâtogether. And you know the search was very . . . very strong . . . and we had to undress and so everywhere and they give me slaps and they kick me.

David Boder

Where did you have to undress?

Yanusch Deutsch

In a room.

David Boder

In a separate room?

Yanusch Deutsch

A separate room, the men . . . separate from the women. And at two o'clock they came and they took us to the [brick?] factory.

David Boder

Two o'clock at night?

Yanusch Deutsch

In the night.

David Boder

In the night.

Yanusch Deutsch

You know, in Hungary I think almost each town they take the Jews in a [brick?] factory.

David Boder

Why?

Yanusch Deutsch

I don't know. Because, you how it looks like . . .

David Boder

A [brick?] factory?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. We were slept on the ground. We didn't have any strawânothing to sleep on and we hadn't food. We had even less food than in Bergen-Belsen.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we were there . . .

David Boder

Oh! You said you did . . . you had some food with you?

Yanusch Deutsch

They took everything away [they saw?]. Almost everything. They give us food for three days we were there for more than a fortnight.

David Boder

They gave you food or they allowed you to have food?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. And they took away the food.

David Boder

Now let's have that clear. They gave you foodâGerman food, bread and so on or they allowed you to take food . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

They allowed . . . they allowed us to take food with us and then they took away the good thingsâthe sugar, the chocolate, the coffee, although we had bread and I don't know . . .

David Boder

Tell me, and the Judenrat was also deported?

Yanusch Deutsch

Everybody. And you know that in Hungary there was some people who fought in the war and who were Jews but they had to go to the ghetto. But they had to go to the [brick?] factory and they were deported too.

David Boder

A-ha. Nu?

Yanusch Deutsch

And in the [brick?] factory we had half a liter of soap in a day . . .

David Boder

Soup?

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . of soup and hundred-fifty grams of bread.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Nothing more. And it was very bad too because we hadn't any . . . any stuff or any fat. You know . . . fat. It was very bad.

David Boder

What month was it?

Yanusch Deutsch

It was . . . June.

David Boder

June?

Yanusch Deutsch

June.

David Boder

And what was the name of your city?

Yanusch Deutsch

SzÃkesfehÃrvÃr, Stuhlweissenburg

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . in German.

David Boder

Nu.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then they took . . . one morning they said that they will take us away from our town and we must get out from the [brick?] factory and we must go to the station, the railway station. Well, the last minute there came a wire saying that twenty-six people are going to Budapest are not going to the transport but are going to Budapest and we were in this twenty-six people.

David Boder

Why?

Yanusch Deutsch

We have these Zionists.

David Boder

Zionists. Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Zionists. And you know that in every . . . in every country, the German . . .

David Boder

The Gestapo?

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . the Gestapo . . . now how do you say it?

David Boder

[clarifying in German]

Yanusch Deutsch

[German phrase]

David Boder

The Germans have taken . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . they have taken. There was a business with the Germans that they can take us . . . I don't know, some Jews to Palestine. It was an Aliyah [immigration or pilgrimage to Palestine], it was . . . made by the Joint.

David Boder

Oh, the Germans had an arrangement that they can take to Palestine . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

. . . some of the Jews. Nu.

Yanusch Deutsch

And they have taken us to Budapest in a camp and we were there six hundred people, later on we were nine hundred there.

David Boder

And they told you that you would go to Palestine?

Yanusch Deutsch

To Palestine. And then one day they took us and they deported us who were . . . they had taken us to Bergen-Belsen. We were in a wagon seventy-nine people we couldn't sleep, we couldn't sit, we could only stand. Because there was not any place.

David Boder

Did you have a toilet in your car?

Yanusch Deutsch

No.

David Boder

What did you do?

Yanusch Deutsch

It was wagon for the cows. You know?

David Boder

Ja. So what did you do when you needed to go to the toilet?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, it was very bad because once a day the train stopped and we had to make it then.

David Boder

To go out?

Yanusch Deutsch

To go out.

David Boder

And if not . . . otherwise? Otherwise . . . ?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, otherwise . . . we had jugs there . . . we had with us jugs . . .

David Boder

And how would you do it? There were people around?

Yanusch Deutsch

We had to do it.

David Boder

Uh-huh And the women?

Yanusch Deutsch

Women too.

David Boder

Well the women too.

Yanusch Deutsch

It was daytime was quite dark too because it was . . . the door was shut. You know?

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

We couldn't see.

David Boder

Ja, so they could . . . satisfy their needs, eliminate in that way.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then. They have taken us to Vienna and from Vienna to Linz.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, in Linz it was a very strange thing because they take us . . . we arrived at Linz at seven o'clock in the morning.

David Boder

Ja, Linz is near the . . . Swiss Border isn't it?

Yanusch Deutsch

Hundred fifty kilometers.

David Boder

Ja. Nu?

Yanusch Deutsch

And then they told us they will take us to bathe.

David Boder

To where?

Yanusch Deutsch

To bathe.

David Boder

Where is that? To Bathe?

Yanusch Deutsch

To bathe . . . baden.

David Boder

A-ha. Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And they took first the women.

David Boder

To Switzerland?

Yanusch Deutsch

No, it was to bathe . . . baden.

David Boder

To bathe . . . to take a bath.

Yanusch Deutsch

To take a bath. They took the women first at seven o'clock in the morning and at three o'clock in the afternoon nobody came back. We were afraid: "What did they do with the women?"

David Boder

Why didn't they take you or your father?

Yanusch Deutsch

First they said they would take the women.

David Boder

Oh, they took the women first?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. Then at three o'clock they came back without the women and they took us [Boder interrupts] . . . yes . . . with the women.

David Boder

. . . and what happened to them?

Yanusch Deutsch

We didn't see the women but the soldiers came back [unintelligible]. And I was very afraid that they would take us in a vernichtungslager. I wanted to escape. And I tried . . .

David Boder

A vernichtungslager?

Yanusch Deutsch

I tried to escape but I couldn'tâthere were a lot of soldiers.

David Boder

A vernichtungslager is a destruction lager?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Yes. Nu?

Yanusch Deutsch

And then they took us in this campâin this lager and . . . we saw the women.

David Boder

What?

Yanusch Deutsch

The women.

David Boder

You saw the women . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

They had to wait four or five hours because there were other people there. And they had a bathâwarm waterâand it was very . . . very goodâvery . . . [unintelligible] . . . we didn't bathe since two monthânu? And then we had a bath and at six o'clock in the afternoon we came back. The women told us that they had to go first to a big roomâwhere there a thousand women there and they saw big boxesâyellow boxesâwhich was written: [Unintelligible]. Attention: [unintelligible] and that a . . . totenkop.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

I don't know how they say in English.

David Boder

What is [?]?

Yanusch Deutsch

A totenkop

David Boder

A skull?

Yanusch Deutsch

A skull right on it.

David Boder

[unintelligible]

Yanusch Deutsch

They didn't know what it is . . . they know that . . . they thought that it's against them. And then the women, they . . .

David Boder

[unverstÃndlich]

Yanusch Deutsch

[In German] Sie werden vernichten.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Die Frauen. Aber es waren nur die Kleider, die haben die Kleider desinfiziert.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und es ist nichts passiert.

David Boder

Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

SpÃter sind wir weiter gegangen und die ganze Reise hat zehn Tage lang gedauert.

David Boder

10 Tage. Immer in demselben Waggon?

Yanusch Deutsch

Dieselben Wagons.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Wir sind angekommen nach Bergen-Belsen. Das ist 70 Kilometer von Hannover, ist Celle, ist ein kleines StÃdtchen und von dort wir mussten zu Fuà 6 Kilometer gehen. Es ist, Ãh, 800 Meter hoch ungefÃhr Ãber mehrere schÃne WÃlder, die Umgebung ist sehr schÃn.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Das [unverstÃndlich]-Lager haben sehr viele Leute gesehen, nicht nur Juden, sondern auch Kriegsgefangene aus alle.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und dann wir sind im Lager hineingegangen. Wir haben eine Barack bekommen. Die Frauen haben ein Barack bekommen. Und die MÃnner einen halben Barack.

David Boder

Und wer war im anderen halben Barack?

Yanusch Deutsch

Das war, war, wir konnten nicht genau [unklar], das waren Polen, von, polnische Juden.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

[unverstÃndlich] waren mit christlichen Papieren.

David Boder

Oh. [Ãberrascht] Polnische Juden mit christlichen Papieren?

Yanusch Deutsch

Christliche Papiere. Aber die Deutschen glaubten, dass sie Juden sind, [verbessert sich] dass sie Christen sind. Aber die waren Juden, die haben uns gesagt.

David Boder

Ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und, in einer Baracke haben tausend Leute gewohnt.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Es war ungefÃhr 150 . . .

David Boder

[unterbricht] Wie viel waren dort polnische Juden mit christlichen Papieren?

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, dort waren ungefÃhr 200.

David Boder

Und die Deutschen haben nicht gewusst, dass . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

[unterbricht] Nein.

David Boder

dass sie Juden waren?

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, ja. Also, ich glaube in Bergen-Belsen waren sehr viele [unverstÃndlich], nur ich weià es nicht genau.

David Boder

[unverstÃndlich]

Yanusch Deutsch

sonst, [unverstÃndlich], vielleicht viel besser.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und, ein Barack war ungefÃhr 150 Meter lang. Dort waren sechs sogenannte âBoxâ. Sechs, sechs Teile geteilt. Und in einem Teil haben ungefÃhr 180, 150 Leute gewohnt. Und Betten in drei StÃcke.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Waren Ãber-[Ãberlegt]. In Nacht war sehr kalt. Es war Juli, aber es war sehr, sehr kalt. Das war Nord [Anm.: nicht klar, was er hiermit meint; Nordwind vielleicht?]. Und Tag war es sehr warm. Wir mussten nicht arbeiten. Es war noch vielleicht schlimmer, weil das Essen war viel schlimmer, als die die arbeiten.

David Boder

[unverstÃndlich]

Yanusch Deutsch

haben. Und wir konnten nichts zu tun den ganzen Tag.

David Boder

Ja. Den ganzen Tag?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. FrÃhstÃck haben wir bekommen 7 Uhr morgens. Ein schwarzes Wasser, man hat gesagt, es war Kaffee, aber es war ein schwarzes, [unverstÃndlich] schwarzes, braunes Wasser. Um elf Uhr haben wir Mittagessen bekommen. Es war, ich weià nicht, es war GemÃse, oder Suppe, es war alles zusammen. War RÃben, [unverstÃndlich], ohne Fett, nur mit Schalen, in Wasser reingeworfen und gekocht.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und manchmal haben wir kleine FleischstÃcke bekommen.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Es war sehr gut, diese FleischstÃcke. Wir haben nicht gewusst, was fÃr ein Fleisch, Ãh, Fleisch ist das. SpÃter ich habe in einer englischen Zeitung gelesen, dass die Menschenfleich waren.

David Boder

[entsetzt] Dass es Menschenfleisch?

Yanusch Deutsch

Menschenfleisch.

David Boder

âfleisch in Belsen?

Yanusch Deutsch

uhum, ja. In Bergen-Belsen. Also in, in, in London Illustrierte Zeitung . . .

David Boder

Die Londonsche Illustrierte Zeitung hat gesagt . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

. . . dass man in Belsen-Belsen [sic!] Menschenfleisch . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

. . . gefÃttert hat?

Yanusch Deutsch

Es war so wie Kalbfleisch, so gut, so klein und so . . .

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

War sehr gut.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und wir haben nicht gewusst, was fÃr ein Fleisch war. In Bergen-Belsen gibt man uns Kalbfleisch. Ja. Und vier Uhr nachmittag haben wir Nachtessen bekommen. Die, haben wir das schwarzes Kaffee wieder bekommen. Und auÃerdem habe ich tÃglich 300 Gramm Brot bekommen. Aber diese 300 Gramm Brot war sehr klein. So, so klein wie hier 50 Gramm. Es war schwer, es war sehr schwer, es war nicht aus Weizen gemacht.

David Boder

Aus was war denn?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ich weià nicht. Ich glaube, auf Deutsch weiter kann ich nicht sagen.

David Boder

Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und auÃerdem manchmal haben wir KonfitÃre bekommen. Pro Woche, 20 Gramm KonfitÃre pro Woche.

David Boder

Was fÃr eine KonfitÃre?

Yanusch Deutsch

Sehr gute KonfitÃre. KonfitÃre wie in der Schweiz.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Gute KonfitÃre. Und Margarine haben wir auch bekommen manchmal. 20, 30 Gramm pro Woche, war auch sehr gut. Gute Butter.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Wir Kinder haben Milch bekommen. Unser Lager hat Milch bekommen und Kakao, das hat man fÃr die Kinder gegeben. Und die Kinder bis sechs Jahren haben halbes Liter Milch pro Tag bekommen.

David Boder

War das wo? Im . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Die Deutschen haben es gegeben.

David Boder

Wo, wo waren Kinder? Waren Kinder in Ihrem Block?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Die waren zusammen. Frauen und separat Kinder, [verbessert sich] separat MÃnner. Und die Kinder, wenn, wenn sie klein waren, waren MÃnner, [verbessert sich] wenn sie MÃdchen waren, mit den Frauen.

David Boder

Und man hat ihnen die Milch reingebracht?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Und von sechs, bis sechs Jahre hat man halbes Liter Milch gegeben pro Tag, von sechs bis neun Jahre drei Deziliter, von 9 bis 14 zwei Deziliter Milch.

David Boder

Haben Sie Milch bekommen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Nein. Ich war mehr als 14 Jahre alt.

David Boder

Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und, kleine Kinder haben Kakao-Sache bekommen, das war kein natÃrlicher Kakao, aber war auch sehr gut, einmal habe ich gekostet.

David Boder

Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Um sieben Uhr mussten wir aufstehen, aufstehen. Hygiene war sehr gut und sehr groà in unserem Lager. Also die Deutschen waren immer reiche Leute, [verbessert sich] reine Leute, nicht wahr? Haben Reinlichkeit gerne. Wir haben groÃe Dusch, Duschen gehabt. Wir konnten jeden Tag duschen. Kaltes Wasser..

David Boder

[unterbricht] In Ihrem Block?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja, das Wasser natÃrlich war sehr angenehm. Und Seife haben wir bekommen. Und Latrinen waren auch sehr gut und rein. Und, also um sieben Uhr mussten wir aufstehen. Die MÃnner um sechs, und die Frauen um sieben Uhr. Um zehn Uhr war Appell. Jeden Tag sind die Soldaten gekommen, uns zu zÃhlen. Ob niemand geflÃchtet ist. Und danach haben wir nichts zu tun gehabt bis abends. Von zehn Uhr abends bis sieben Uhr morgens niemand durfte von den Baracken hinaus gehen. Wer hinausgegangen ist, hat man ihm erschossen. Von dem Turm. Rundherum waren, jede zweihundert Meter war ein Turm mit Soldaten mit Gewehr.

David Boder

Ja. Haben Sie die anderen Juden dort gesehen? Haben Sie die polnischen Juden . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

[fÃllt ins Wort] Ich habe, wir haben Juden gesehen, aber wir kÃnnen nicht sprechen mit andere Juden.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

War verboten. Wir haben hollÃndische Juden gesehen, Franzosen,

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Russen, nicht Juden, Kriegsgefangene. Die waren in einem schlechten Zustand, die russischen Kriegsgefangenen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und dann haben wir Franzosen gesehen und EnglÃnder, Amerikaner, Kriegsgefangene.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Jede Woche einmal wir sind baden gegangen, duschen gegangen, wir haben Badeâ, warmes Bad bekommen. Und die andere Teil von diese BadegebÃude war die Krematorium. Zweimal haben wir gesehen, dass sie haben Leute gebracht zum Krematorium herein.

David Boder

Lebendige?

Yanusch Deutsch

Lebendige Leute.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . gebracht. Sie haben geschrien und geweint und alles.

David Boder

Wie war das? ErzÃhlen Sie. Wann war das? Wie, wieso haben Sie [sich] gesehen? Wo sind sie gegangen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Jede Woche hat man uns, sie haben gesagt, baden gegangen. In dem Augenblick, wo wir zum [unverstÃndlich; laute GerÃusche des AufnahmegerÃts].

David Boder

Also, ich wollte wissen, nochmal. Sie sagen, Sie haben die Leute gesehen, die man aufs Krematorium genommen hat?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

Also wollen Sie mir solch eine Begebenheit mit groÃen Einzelheiten beschreiben? Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Also wir sind im, im BadegebÃude gegangen. Waren zwei groÃe RÃume. In einem Raum wir mussten die Kleider runternehmen. Und nach, im, im Duschenzimmer reingehen. Und wir, wir waren drin, und wir haben uns oben ausgezogen, als zwei Autos gekommen sind mit Leute, jÃdische Leute, ich weià nicht aus was fÃr NationalitÃt.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, sie haben ihre Sterne getragen. Ich glaube, sie waren HollÃnder.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Waren sehr schlechter Zustand, sie konnten kaum gehen. Waren Ãltere Leute auch drin.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ãltere und, und Kinder auch drin. Also, starke Leute habe ich Ãberhaupt keine gesehen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Waren nur schwache und kranke Leute. Und dann..

David Boder

Nur in diesem Transport, ja?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Und dann die Deutschen haben die Juden heruntergeworfen von dem Auto. Und mit GummistÃcke geworâ, Ãh, geschlagen. Und sie sind reingegangen in dem anderen, andere GebÃude.

David Boder

Ja. Und Sie sagen, die Leute haben geschrien?

Yanusch Deutsch

Geschrien und geweint und wahrscheinlich sie haben gewusst, was geschieht. Mit dem wahrscheinlich nicht [unklar, was gemeint]. Und wir sind jede Woche einmal in mehrere Transporte baden gegangen, weil sie waren dort 1600 Juden. Und, und im Badezimmer konnten nur auf einmal 200 Leute gehen. Also, wir sind um nachmittag um 3 Uhr gegangen, wir haben erst um halb vier gesehn. Und die anderen sind spÃter gegangen. Bis neun Uhr abends keiner ist von dort zurÃckgekommen. Also wenn bis neun Uhr niemand kommt zurÃck, wahrscheinlich waren sie . . .

David Boder

Naja, vielleicht sind sie nach anderen Block gegangen?

Yanusch Deutsch

War kein, kein Ausgang mehr.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ich habe die Leute sehr gut gekannt.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Wir haben uns gut gekannt. Habe [unverstÃndlich] dort gearbeitet.

David Boder

Ja. Wo haben Sie dort gearbeitet?

Yanusch Deutsch

Im, im BadegebÃude.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, im Garten habe ich gearbeitet, aber nicht fÃr lange. Und was kann ich noch erzÃhlen aus Bergen-Belsen? Waren Soldaten dort, also keine Zeitungen und alles gibt es nicht da hereinbekommen. Waren dort Soldaten, einige waren anstÃndige. Sie haben mit uns gesprochen.

David Boder

SS-Leute?

Yanusch Deutsch

SS-Leute. Waren Ungarn dort zum Beispiel. Sie waren keine Nazis.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Sondern die Deutschen haben, haben die weggeschleppt aus Ungarn und als Soldaten gemacht. Und sie wollten nicht kÃmpfen im Front, also man hat sie in Bergen-Belsen im Konzentrationslager als Wache, Ãh, gemacht. Und die waren keine Nazis, sie haben uns geholfen. Und sie haben immer gesagt die politische Lage. Und wir haben immer gefreut [evtl. âgefragtâ], dass die, die, im, Ãh, In, da war die Invasion in Frankreich. Im 6. Juni hat die Invasion in Frankreich begonnen und die selbe Tag hat man uns deportiert aus Ungarn.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, es war in August schon und wir haben gehÃrt, was es gibt im, in Frankreich, in Ungarn. Und man, sie haben uns Zeitungen hereingebracht und Zigaretten. Wir haben Marken [Anm.: gemeint ist die WÃhrung Mark] gehabt, deutsche Marken, Reichsmarken noch aus Ungarn. Wir haben ihnen das Marken gegeâ

David Boder

[unterbricht] War Ihnen erlaubt zu behalten die Marken?

Yanusch Deutsch

Man hat uns Ãberhaupt nicht durchgesucht.

David Boder

Wo? Im Lager?

Yanusch Deutsch

In, von, von, Ãh, Budapest da hat man uns nicht durchgesucht.

David Boder

Aber Sie haben doch alles abgeben mÃssen in Budapest?

Yanusch Deutsch

Nicht in Budapest, in StuhlweiÃenburg [Anm.: dt. Name von SzÃkesfehÃrvÃr ][Nachsilbe/ein Wort unverstÃndlich].

David Boder

Aber haben Sie doch abgeben mÃssen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja, aber, aber das haben wir noch in Budapest bekommen in Lager.

David Boder

[UnverstÃndlich]?

Yanusch Deutsch

Oder war von Bekannten.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Diese, Ãh, dieser Lager in Budapest galt sehr gut. Wir konnten sogar hinausgehen von dem Lager.

David Boder

Ja. Also warten Sie. Zuerst waren Sie im Lager in ihrer Stadt?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

Dann waren Sie . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Es war sehr schlecht. Es war schlechter als Bergen-Belsen. 3 Wochen lang.

David Boder

Dann waren Sie . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

In Budapest war ich in einem Lager, das war gut, wir konnten dort hinausgehen mit Wache und, und bewacht, konnten reingehen. Das Essen war genug und viel.

David Boder

Sie konnten herausgehen mit was?

Yanusch Deutsch

Mit, mit, ja, mit deutsche Soldaten.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Wir haben 100 PengÃs, 100 ungarische PengÃs bezahlt, und dann wir durften hinausgehen.

David Boder

Und im Linz?

Yanusch Deutsch

Im Linz wir waren nur ein Tage lang, haben, wir haben gewartet.

David Boder

Also, wo hat man alles abgeben mÃssen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Im, im [unklar; entweder âmeinem Stadtâ oder Ungarischer Name].

David Boder

So, wie haben Sie wieder in Budapest das gehabt? Oh. Von Bekannte [unverstÃndlich].

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Verstehen Sie es?

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ist es klar?

David Boder

Ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und die haben mich vergesst gehabt. Ich weià nicht genau, ich glaub, 500 deutsche Marken gehabt.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

War nicht so groà der Geld, aber wir konnten nichts damit zu machen. Haben 20, 30 Marken fÃr ein Zeitung gegeben und, ich weià nicht was, Zigaretten.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und ist sehr interessant, die jÃdische Psychologen, der im Lager.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

[unklar] waren sehr viel Ãrzte und Advokaten und Intellektuelle , mehrere, die achtzig Prozent waren Intellektuelle.

David Boder

[fragt zwischen, unverstÃndlich]?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. In diesem, unserem Transport.

David Boder

Ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Bei 1600 Leuten.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und als wir nach Bergen-Belsen angekommen sind, am ersten Tag alle haben angefangen zu stehlen.

David Boder

Zu stehlen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Zu stehlen. Ich habe etwas dort gelassen, ein FleischstÃck oder ich weià nicht was, nÃchsten Minuten es war schon nicht mehr dort.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und, alle haben gestohlen. Und war, nicht wahr, gestâ und gestritten ganzen Tag. Es war, die Nerven gehen sehr kaputt.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und wir haben mit unseren Bekannten und, und, und mit allen da, den Verwandten gestritten und geschimpft, den ganzen Tag. Und als die [unklar], wir waren ein oder zwei Monate lang in Bergen-Belsen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Zwei Monate lang.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Nur, also war es ziemlich nicht viel. Da hat man uns die Beschwerde gebracht, . . .

David Boder

Hat wer?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ein Morgen die deutschen Soldaten gekommen, wir mÃssen in einem anderen Lager uns umziehen. [unklar] sind wir in Dachau oder nach Auschwitz eine weitere Lager. Und wir sind wieder in Wagone eingegangen. Wir waren nur ganz, nur 300.

David Boder

Ja? MÃnner und Frauen?

Yanusch Deutsch

MÃnner und Frauen.

David Boder

Waren Ihre [evtl. âEltern daâ]?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Mit meinen Eltern war. Gott sei Dank war mit meinen Eltern. Und dort 300 sind dort geblieben. Und wir sind dann in Wagonen hineingegangen. Auch achtâ oder neunzig in einem Wagon und vier oder fÃnf Tage lang haben wir da rein, wir haben nicht gewusst, wohin und, und [unverstÃndlich]. In Karlsruhe wir haben eine deutsche Bombardierung erlebt, man hat Karlsruhe bombardiert. Ist eine groÃe Stadt und eine groÃe Bahnhofstation.

David Boder

Welche Stadt?

Yanusch Deutsch

Karlsruhe.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja, und dann mussten wir ins Wiese gehen und alle kÃnnten gehen, wenn wir wollten. Weil Ãberhaupt keine Wache, wir waren ohne Wachen. Ohne..

David Boder

Ohne Soldaten?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ohne Soldaten. Ja. Wir kÃnnten wegziehen, wenn wir wollten. Ich weià nicht, wir wollten schon nicht weg, wir haben nicht gewusst, wohin wir gehen. FÃr uns war schon egal, wohin wir gehen. Noch in die selbe Abend wir waren in Basel.

David Boder

Ja. In, in der Schweiz?

Yanusch Deutsch

In der Schweiz.

David Boder

Wie hat man Sie auf der Grenze rÃbergefÃhrt?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Die letzte deutsche Station ist Weil [Anm.: am Rhein], das ist, war ein Kilometer von Basel ungefÃhr vom deutsche.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

noch Deutschland. Dort hat man uns untergesucht. Hat man alle Papiere, was wir gehabt haben, weggenommen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Wenn jemand Geld gehabt hat oder so etwas, hat man nicht weggenommen. Zum Beispiel jemand hat ein, ein Fotoapparat mit gehabt. Hat man nicht weggenommen.

David Boder

Ja. Wieso hat man den Fotoapparat nicht weggenommen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Das hat man nicht genommen. Also Papiere hat man, ja, weil sie auch haben Angst gehabt von die Spionage.

David Boder

Ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Und wir waren dort fÃnf, fÃnf Stunden lang. Und dann hat man uns geschwind, sofort ins Wagone. Dann hat man die Wagone abgesperrt. Von [undeutlich,] in drei Minuten wir waren in einem groÃe Stadt. Waren Soldaten gekommen, sind deutsche Soldaten [einige Worte unverstÃndlich] deutsche Soldaten. GroÃe Stadt, viele Leute. Und hat man uns empfangen. Und Soldaten und Rot-Kreuz-Schwestern und . . .

David Boder

[unterbricht] [unverstÃndlich] Schwester?

Yanusch Deutsch

Sehr nett waren sie. Und hat man uns in einen Wartesaal gefÃhrt. Waren dort StÃhle. Dort wir haben nach zwei, nach drei oder vier Monaten zum ersten Mal einen Stuhl gesehen. Und einen Lampen. Und ich hab Angst gehabt, in einem Stuhl zu setzen. Ich wollte nur auf den Erde, auf den Boden sitzen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und dann haben wir Essen bekommen. Zuerst Suppe und dann leichtere Sachen, dann spÃter chocolat [einige Worte undeutlich]. Dann haben wir langsam, langsam gewusst, dass wir in der Schweiz gekommen sind und wir sind gerettet.

David Boder

Ihre ganze Familie?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

Und dann, was hat in der Schweiz passiert?

Yanusch Deutsch

In der Schweiz wir waren in Auffangslager, in Montreux. War nicht sehr gut. In einem anderen Auffangslager auch. Waren zwei Monate, drei Monate lang. Und dann bin ich nach Engelberg gegangen, in einem Heim. Dort ist meine Mutter auch. War in einem englischen Institut, dort war ich ein Jahr lang. In einem englischen Institut.

David Boder

Sie wohnen noch in Engelberg?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

Und Ihr Vater?

Yanusch Deutsch

Mein Vater ist bei ZÃrich, arbeitet er als Ingenieur.

David Boder

Ja. So, warum darf Ihre Mutter nicht mit ihm wohnen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, mein, mein Vater verdient nicht so viel, dass meine Mutter auch dort wohnen kann.

David Boder

Aha. Und in ZÃrich ist er mit, mit wem?

Yanusch Deutsch

In einer Firma, in einer Privatfirma arbeitet er.

David Boder

Ach ja. Nun?

Yanusch Deutsch

Er ist ein sehr guter Fachmann.

David Boder

Wie weit ist Engelbrecht [sic!] von hier?

Yanusch Deutsch

Engelberg ist bei der VierwaldstÃttersee.

David Boder

Im . . . ?

Yanusch Deutsch

Wissen Sie, wo Luzern ist?

David Boder

Wie weit, Ãh,?

Yanusch Deutsch

300 Kilometer von hier.

David Boder

Von hier. Kann man da per Bahn gehen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

Sind dort viele Leute?

Yanusch Deutsch

Es ist ein Kurort. Nicht wahr, eine der schÃnsten Kurort der Schweiz. Hat ungefÃhr 1000 Einwohner. Aber [unverstÃndlich] so nicht; gibt ungefÃhr fÃnf-, sechstausend KurgÃste.

David Boder

Ja. Aber wohnen Sie dort in einem Lager, oder?

Yanusch Deutsch

In einem, in einem Hotel. Das [unverstÃndlich] ist gut, das Essen ist gut, ist zufrieden, bekommt etwas Geld, Taschengeld. Ich glaub, 50 oder 30, 40 Franken im Monat.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und sie ist zufrieden dort, die Umgebung ist wunderbar.

David Boder

Aha.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und ich war im englischen Institut in Montreux. Und nachher bin ich hier gekommen, in Genf, [unverstÃndlich] Schule.

David Boder

Sie studieren jetzt [wahrscheinlich âMechanikâ]?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja. Und abend vorbereite ich vor fÃr die MaturitÃ, fÃr die [undeutlich] MaturitÃ.

David Boder

FÃr welche MaturitÃ?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja, also. Erst fÃr [einige Worte unverstÃndlich]. Ich will [evtl. âein Jahrâ] [einige Worte unverstÃndlich] machen.

David Boder

Wo? In England?

Yanusch Deutsch

Nein, in der Schweiz, in Genf kann man das machen.

David Boder

Und was wollen Sie nachher machen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Nachher mÃchte ich auf UniversitÃt gehen, wenn es mÃglich ist.

David Boder

Was wollen Sie denn studieren?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ãhm, Maschineningenieur.

David Boder

Maschineningenieur. Nun, da ist es Ihnen doch so sehr gut gegangen, dass es bleibt verschieden, gerade verschieden, wie es den anderen Leuten gegangen ist?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

Wie erklÃren Sie das? War das, weil Sie Zionisten waren? War das, weil Sie Ungarn waren?

Yanusch Deutsch

In Ungarn waren, in Ungarn waren wir groÃe Zionisten.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Und die Deutschen haben die Zionisten gerettet. Also hat man, die Juden haben gesehen, wer kÃnnen, wer kommen kÃnnen, in diese Transport. Und natÃrlich haben sie die Zionisten gewÃhlt, nicht wahr.

David Boder

Aha.

David Boder

Waren da mehrere reiche Leute mit Ihnen oder waren auch arme Leute?

Yanusch Deutsch

Ganz verschieden. Waren sehr leicht, [korrigiert sich] waren sehr reiche Leute, die auch sehr viel gezahlt haben, dass sie kommen kÃnnen, dazu [oder: âda zuâ] die Zionisten.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Waren auch sehr, aber die groÃe Teil waren arme Leute, nicht wahr? Wir haben zum Beispiel Ãberhaupt nichts mehr [einige Worte undeutlich], Ãh, bezahlt, nicht wahr?

David Boder

Ja. Wie haben Sie das bezahlt?

Yanusch Deutsch

Die jÃdische, die Judâ, die Judenrat. Der Judenrat hat es dem, dem Joint weitergegeben und das hat dann, Joint [unverstÃndlich] gemacht.

David Boder

Der Joint hat doch kein Geld mit Ihnen gemacht?

Yanusch Deutsch

Also, ich weià nicht, wie es gegangen ist. Ich, die Joint hat Geld bezahlt, aber sie mussten auch vorher etwas zahlen dafÃr.

David Boder

[In English] This concludes Spool 80 of Yanusch Deutsch, a Hungarian, a Hungarian Jewish child which was saved . . . eh, by special, by a special form of deportation to Belsen, presumably a Zionist, which has to be verified.

var english_translation = { interview: [ David Boder

Geneva, August the 27th 1946, at the ORT School of Mechanics. The interviewee is Yanusch Deutsch, now seventeen and a half . . . rather a tall, good-looking and neat-looking young man. And we shall interview him on his experiences during the war.

David Boder

[In German] So, Mr. Deutsch, eh . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes?

David Boder

Tell me, where were you when the war start, started, and what happened to you during the war?

Yanusch Deutsch

When the war broke out I was in Hungary. I lived in a, with my parents in a little toâ, town not far from Budapest. Sixty kilometers from Budapest.

David Boder

How many people were there in your family?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, my parents, they are alone.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, I was there, too.

David Boder

Yes. Now, what was your parents' occupation?

Yanusch Deutsch

My father is architect engineer.

David Boder

Yes. Where is your father now?

Yanusch Deutsch

In Switzerland.

David Boder

In Switzerland.

Yanusch Deutsch

And he is working as an engineer.

David Boder

Yes. Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

And my father has an office . . .

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we could live calmly until 1944.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

The [unintelligible; something with "architect"?] was not so big in Hungary, so we could calmly live there.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we heard the news from Germany and the occupied territories where the Germans were. What, what terrible things they did to the Jews. We never thought that the same could happen to us.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

In '44, 20 March the Germans conquered Hungary.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

There was no object.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

And the Jewâ, the Germans, of course, immediately took measures against the Jews.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes, Star [of David] and [inaudible].

David Boder

[unintelligible; possibly something in English?]

Yanusch Deutsch

Every country is the same. [unintelligible] what happened in Germany, only much, much faster.

David Boder

So, for example, what did they do? Let's forget that we already know that.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes, well, [unintelligible].

David Boder

How was it announced that one was supposed to wear the Stars?

Yanusch Deutsch

Twelve days after the Germans . . .

David Boder

[unintelligible]

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . occupied Hungary,

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . in the papers there appeared articles that the Jews, eh, six, I mean have to wear Magen David.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Ten centimeters large, made from yellow, yellow . . .

David Boder

Cloth?

Yanusch Deutsch

Cloth.

David Boder

Yes, out of yellow cloth.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes, yellow cloth.

David Boder

And where did one get these? Were they sold, or what?

Yanusch Deutsch

We had to make them ourselves, and Jewish merchants, Jewish, I mean, salesmen sold it.

David Boder

They sold it?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

How much did they take for it?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, I don't know, twenty, thirty drachmas, well . . .

David Boder

Twenty, thirty drachmas. So they . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

[interrupts] Most often nothing, most often nothing at all, because they knew, after all, that they not have their businesses much longer, so why should they earn anything.

David Boder

Yes. Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

And then things proceeded quite rapidly. At first, the businessmen had to lock their businesses.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then they had to hand in cameras, radios, typewriters, [unintelligible; possibly "little treasures"?], everything.

David Boder

[unintelligible]

Yanusch Deutsch

[unintelligible]

David Boder

Yes. Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

And then we immediately had to hand in all the gold and, how does one say, "schmucksachen"?

David Boder

Jewelry.

Yanusch Deutsch

Jewelry. And money that we had in the bank, that we had saved, and absolutely nothing of it we could receive.

David Boder

Speak [possibly: "try"?] English, don't mind the pronunciation, go on.

Yanusch Deutsch

[In English] . . . I'll try. But it was not only this loss against us but the German SS soldiers came every day and they asked us . . . Do you know that in every town there was a Judenrat [Jewish Council]âthere were JudenrÃte with Judenalteste. And they came every day and they asked us food . . . [break in tape] . . . jewels, everything they liked.

David Boder

Who? The Judenrat?

Yanusch Deutsch

From the Judenrat, the SS soldiers and the Judenratâit was the duty of the Judenratâto get these things.

David Boder

Oh. The SS came to the Judenrat?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

And the Judenrat had to go to the Jews . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

. . . to get it. Nu. All right. That's very good. Go ahead.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. And after two month and a half who had to go to the ghetto.

David Boder

Now how was that?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well in all town it was like that. First we had to leave . . . there were only some houses for the Jews and on the door of these houses there wasâwere a big gold star.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

A yellow star.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we were living in our flat twenty-four persons. Before [unintelligible] we had four rooms and we lived there twenty-four persons.

David Boder

So they left you in your flat . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

But who got you the twenty-four persons? Who told you to take in the twenty-four persons?

Yanusch Deutsch

The SS soldiers told the Judenrat on Monday that for Friday they did had these housesâI think it was hundred and twenty housesâand they must get there . . . still Friday evening.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And it was very difficult business because we hadn't had any car and we had to take the furnitures ourselves.

David Boder

So you had to move out from your . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

No. Fortunately we didn't move outâthen. We lived that for one week. You can imagine that..

David Boder

That you took in other people?

Yanusch Deutsch

Other . . . twenty-one persons. [speaking over each other] We were twenty-four. Well you can imagine it because . . .

David Boder

Well . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . twenty-four people . . . brought with them their furnitures and their things and the flat was crowded and we couldn't move and we had only one kitchen and there were five or six familieâ, families.

David Boder

Yes. And how many rooms did you have?

Yanusch Deutsch

Four big rooms.

David Boder

What?

Yanusch Deutsch

Four.

David Boder

Four rooms and a kitchen.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Yes. Nu.

Yanusch Deutsch

And, for instance, my mother and Iâand meâslept in the kitchen.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

And they were cooking in the kitchen all day and night. We were cooking from eight o'clock until ten o'clock, other families from ten o'clock until twelve . . .

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . other families in the afternoon. So we lived there for one week. We knew . . . we knew that they would deport us and we had to get some food and we wanted to eat it very quickly.

David Boder

All right.

Yanusch Deutsch

And, one morning . . .

David Boder

You said you wanted to eat your food as quick as possible because you knew that what?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, it very good things [?] and we were . . . I can say we were then happy. It was the last happy days of my life.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

And one morning, suddenly, at four o'clock German soldiers came in our house and they ordered the men in the yard . . . on the yard.

David Boder

Ja. Only the men?

Yanusch Deutsch

Only the men. And they told them that they would give us one hour. In one hour we must move out. We can take with us thirty kilos of baggages.

David Boder

Each person?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Ja. How old were you then?

Yanusch Deutsch

I was then fifteen years old . . . and some months. Well, you can imagine we hadn't had much time. We had to clotheâto dress ourselvesâand we take some food and some clothes and everything we knewâeverything we knew it would be useful. Then they take us on the yard and they . . . how do you say in English [German phrase]?

David Boder

And they searched you?

Yanusch Deutsch

They searched us. They took the good things away from us: the chocolate, the coffee, the sugar . . . confiture [jam], the jam, and we remained with very little baggages.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then we had to remain there from six o'clock in the morning until two o'clock in the night.

David Boder

In the yard?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. It was [great fun?].

David Boder

The men alone or everybody?

Yanusch Deutsch

Everybodyâtogether. And you know the search was very . . . very strong . . . and we had to undress and so everywhere and they give me slaps and they kick me.

David Boder

Where did you have to undress?

Yanusch Deutsch

In a room.

David Boder

In a separate room?

Yanusch Deutsch

A separate room, the men . . . separate from the women. And at two o'clock they came and they took us to the [brick?] factory.

David Boder

Two o'clock at night?

Yanusch Deutsch

In the night.

David Boder

In the night.

Yanusch Deutsch

You know, in Hungary I think almost each town they take the Jews in a [brick?] factory.

David Boder

Why?

Yanusch Deutsch

I don't know. Because, you how it looks like . . .

David Boder

A [brick?] factory?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. We were slept on the ground. We didn't have any strawânothing to sleep on and we hadn't food. We had even less food than in Bergen-Belsen.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we were there . . .

David Boder

Oh! You said you did . . . you had some food with you?

Yanusch Deutsch

They took everything away [they saw?]. Almost everything. They give us food for three days we were there for more than a fortnight.

David Boder

They gave you food or they allowed you to have food?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. And they took away the food.

David Boder

Now let's have that clear. They gave you foodâGerman food, bread and so on or they allowed you to take food . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

They allowed . . . they allowed us to take food with us and then they took away the good thingsâthe sugar, the chocolate, the coffee, although we had bread and I don't know . . .

David Boder

Tell me, and the Judenrat was also deported?

Yanusch Deutsch

Everybody. And you know that in Hungary there was some people who fought in the war and who were Jews but they had to go to the ghetto. But they had to go to the [brick?] factory and they were deported too.

David Boder

A-ha. Nu?

Yanusch Deutsch

And in the [brick?] factory we had half a liter of soap in a day . . .

David Boder

Soup?

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . of soup and hundred-fifty grams of bread.

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

Nothing more. And it was very bad too because we hadn't any . . . any stuff or any fat. You know . . . fat. It was very bad.

David Boder

What month was it?

Yanusch Deutsch

It was . . . June.

David Boder

June?

Yanusch Deutsch

June.

David Boder

And what was the name of your city?

Yanusch Deutsch

SzÃkesfehÃrvÃr, Stuhlweissenburg

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . in German.

David Boder

Nu.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then they took . . . one morning they said that they will take us away from our town and we must get out from the [brick?] factory and we must go to the station, the railway station. Well, the last minute there came a wire saying that twenty-six people are going to Budapest are not going to the transport but are going to Budapest and we were in this twenty-six people.

David Boder

Why?

Yanusch Deutsch

We have these Zionists.

David Boder

Zionists. Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Zionists. And you know that in every . . . in every country, the German . . .

David Boder

The Gestapo?

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . the Gestapo . . . now how do you say it?

David Boder

[clarifying in German]

Yanusch Deutsch

[German phrase]

David Boder

The Germans have taken . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . they have taken. There was a business with the Germans that they can take us . . . I don't know, some Jews to Palestine. It was an Aliyah [immigration or pilgrimage to Palestine], it was . . . made by the Joint.

David Boder

Oh, the Germans had an arrangement that they can take to Palestine . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Ja.

David Boder

. . . some of the Jews. Nu.

Yanusch Deutsch

And they have taken us to Budapest in a camp and we were there six hundred people, later on we were nine hundred there.

David Boder

And they told you that you would go to Palestine?

Yanusch Deutsch

To Palestine. And then one day they took us and they deported us who were . . . they had taken us to Bergen-Belsen. We were in a wagon seventy-nine people we couldn't sleep, we couldn't sit, we could only stand. Because there was not any place.

David Boder

Did you have a toilet in your car?

Yanusch Deutsch

No.

David Boder

What did you do?

Yanusch Deutsch

It was wagon for the cows. You know?

David Boder

Ja. So what did you do when you needed to go to the toilet?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, it was very bad because once a day the train stopped and we had to make it then.

David Boder

To go out?

Yanusch Deutsch

To go out.

David Boder

And if not . . . otherwise? Otherwise . . . ?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, otherwise . . . we had jugs there . . . we had with us jugs . . .

David Boder

And how would you do it? There were people around?

Yanusch Deutsch

We had to do it.

David Boder

Uh-huh And the women?

Yanusch Deutsch

Women too.

David Boder

Well the women too.

Yanusch Deutsch

It was daytime was quite dark too because it was . . . the door was shut. You know?

David Boder

Ja.

Yanusch Deutsch

We couldn't see.

David Boder

Ja, so they could . . . satisfy their needs, eliminate in that way.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then. They have taken us to Vienna and from Vienna to Linz.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, in Linz it was a very strange thing because they take us . . . we arrived at Linz at seven o'clock in the morning.

David Boder

Ja, Linz is near the . . . Swiss Border isn't it?

Yanusch Deutsch

Hundred fifty kilometers.

David Boder

Ja. Nu?

Yanusch Deutsch

And then they told us they will take us to bathe.

David Boder

To where?

Yanusch Deutsch

To bathe.

David Boder

Where is that? To Bathe?

Yanusch Deutsch

To bathe . . . baden.

David Boder

A-ha. Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And they took first the women.

David Boder

To Switzerland?

Yanusch Deutsch

No, it was to bathe . . . baden.

David Boder

To bathe . . . to take a bath.

Yanusch Deutsch

To take a bath. They took the women first at seven o'clock in the morning and at three o'clock in the afternoon nobody came back. We were afraid: "What did they do with the women?"

David Boder

Why didn't they take you or your father?

Yanusch Deutsch

First they said they would take the women.

David Boder

Oh, they took the women first?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. Then at three o'clock they came back without the women and they took us [Boder interrupts] . . . yes . . . with the women.

David Boder

. . . and what happened to them?

Yanusch Deutsch

We didn't see the women but the soldiers came back [unintelligible]. And I was very afraid that they would take us in a vernichtungslager. I wanted to escape. And I tried . . .

David Boder

A vernichtungslager?

Yanusch Deutsch

I tried to escape but I couldn'tâthere were a lot of soldiers.

David Boder

A vernichtungslager is a destruction lager?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Yes. Nu?

Yanusch Deutsch

And then they took us in this campâin this lager and . . . we saw the women.

David Boder

What?

Yanusch Deutsch

The women.

David Boder

You saw the women . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

They had to wait four or five hours because there were other people there. And they had a bathâwarm waterâand it was very . . . very goodâvery . . . [unintelligible] . . . we didn't bathe since two monthânu? And then we had a bath and at six o'clock in the afternoon we came back. The women told us that they had to go first to a big roomâwhere there a thousand women there and they saw big boxesâyellow boxesâwhich was written: [Unintelligible]. Attention: [unintelligible] and that a . . . totenkop.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

I don't know how they say in English.

David Boder

What is [?]?

Yanusch Deutsch

A totenkop

David Boder

A skull?

Yanusch Deutsch

A skull right on it.

David Boder

[unintelligible]

Yanusch Deutsch

They didn't know what it is . . . they know that . . . they thought that it's against them. And then the women, they . . .

David Boder

[In German] [unintelligible]

Yanusch Deutsch

They will annihilate.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

The women. But it was only the clothes, they disinfected the clothes.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And nothing happened.

David Boder

Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

Later, we went on and the entire journey took us ten days.

David Boder

Ten days. All in the same railway car?

Yanusch Deutsch

The same cars.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

We arrived in Bergen-Belsen. That is seventy kilometers from Hannover, is Celle, is a small city, and from there we had to walk six kilometers on foot. It is, eh, about eight hundred meters high above several beautiful forests, the environment is very beautiful.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

A lot of people saw the "[unintelligible]-Lager", not only Jews, but also prisoners of war from all [nationalities].

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then we went into the camp. We got a barrack. The women got a barrack. And the men got half a barrack.

David Boder

And who was in the other half of the barrack?

Yanusch Deutsch

That was, was, we could not exactly [unintelligible]. Those were Poles, of, Polish Jews.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

[unintelligible] were with Christian papers.

David Boder

Oh. [somewhat surprised] Polish Jews with Christian papers.

Yanusch Deutsch

Christian papers. But the Germans believed that they were Jews, [corrects himself] that they were Christians. But they were Jews, they told us.

David Boder

Yes. Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

And, in one barrack there lived one thousand people.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

There were about a hundred and fifty . . .

David Boder

[interrupts] How many Polish Jews with Christian papers were there?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, there were about two hundred.

David Boder

And the Germans didn't know that . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

[interrupts] No.

David Boder

. . . that they were Jews?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, yes. Well, I believe there were many [several words unintelligible] in Bergen-Belsen, only I do not know exactly.

David Boder

[unintelligible]

Yanusch Deutsch

[unintelligible], maybe much better.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And, a barrack was about a hundred and fifty meters long. There were six so-called box. Six, six parts divided. And in each part there lived about a hundred and eighty, a hundred and fifty people. And beds in three stories.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Were over-about [he probably means "on top of one another"]. At night, it was very cold. It was July, but it was very, very cold. It was North. And days it was very warm. We did not have to work. This was maybe even worse, because the food was much worse than those who were workâ

David Boder

[unintelligible]

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . working. And we had nothing to do all day.

David Boder

Yes. All day?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. We were given breakfast at seven in the morning. A black water, they said it was coffee, but it was a black, [unintelligible] black, brown water. At eleven we were given lunch. It was, I don't know, it was vegetables, or soup, it was all together. Were beets, [unintelligible], no fat/grease, only the peelings, thrown into water and boiled.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And sometimes we were given little pieces of meat.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

It was very good, these pieces of meat. We didn't know what kind of meat, eh, meat this was. Later, I read in an English newspaper that it was human flesh.

David Boder

[appalled] That it was human flesh?

Yanusch Deutsch

Human flesh.

David Boder

. . . flesh in Belsen?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. In Bergen-Belsen. Well, in, in, London Illustrated Paper . . .

David Boder

The London Illustrated Paper wrote that . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

. . . that in Belsen-Belsen [sic] human flesh . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

. . . was fed?

Yanusch Deutsch

It was just like veal, so good, so small, and so . . .

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Was very good.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we didn't know what kind of meat it was. In Bergen-Belsen we are given veal. Yes. At four in the afternoon we got our night meal. The, we were given that black coffee again. And I also received three hundred grams of bread every day. But these three hundred grams of bread were very small. So, as small as fifty grams are here. It was heavy, it was very heavy, it was not made from wheat.

David Boder

From what was it made then?

Yanusch Deutsch

I don't know. I think in German I cannot say anymore.

David Boder

Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

And also sometimes they gave us confiture. Per week, twenty grams of confiture per week.

David Boder

What kind of confiture?

Yanusch Deutsch

Very good confiture. Confiture just as in Switzerland.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Good confiture. And sometimes we also received margarine. Twenty, thirty grams per week; that was also very good. Good butter.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

We children got milk. Our camp received milk and cacao that was given to the children. And the children under the age of six received half a liter of milk per day.

David Boder

Where was that? In . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

The Germans gave it.

David Boder

Where, where were children? Were there children in your block?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. They were together. Women and, separately, children. [corrects himself] Separately, men. And the children when, when they were small, were men, [corrects himself] when they were girls were with the women.

David Boder

And they brought the milk in for you?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. And from six, up to the age of six they gave half a liter per day, between six and nine years three deciliters, from nine to fourteen two deciliters of milk.

David Boder

Did you get any milk?

Yanusch Deutsch

No, I was more than fourteen years old.

David Boder

Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

And little children got cacao-thing, that wasn't natural cacao, but was also very good, one time I tried it.

David Boder

Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

At seven o'clock we had to get up, get up. Hygiene was very good and very big in this camp. Well, the Germans always have been rich people, [corrects himself] clean people, haven't they? They like cleanliness. We had big showâ, showers. We could shower every day. Cold water . . .

David Boder

[interrupts] In your block?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes, the water, of course, was very pleasant. And we got soap. And the latrines also were very good and clean. And, so at seven o'clock we had to get up. The men at six, and the women at seven. At ten, there was roll call. Every day the soldiers came to count us. If nobody had run away. And after that we had nothing to do until night. Between ten at night and seven in the morning nobody was allowed to leave the barracks. Anybody who went outside was shot. From the tower. All around were, every two hundred meters there were towers with soldiers and guns.

David Boder

Yes. Did you see the other Jews there? Did you [no verb] the Polish Jews . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

[interrupts] I did, we saw Jews, but we could not speak with other Jews.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Was prohibited. We saw Dutch Jews, French . . .

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Russians, not Jews, prisoners of war. They were in bad condition, the Russian prisoners of war were.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then we saw French men and English, Americans, prisoners of war.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Once every week we had a bath, a shower, we had bath, eh, a warm bath. And the other part of this bathing facility was the crematory. Twice we saw them bring people into the crematory.

David Boder

Living?

Yanusch Deutsch

Living people.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

. . . were brought. They were screaming and crying and everything.

David Boder

How was that? Tell. When was that? How, why did you see them? Where did they go?

Yanusch Deutsch

Every week we were, they told us, we went bathing. The moment at which [the rest is inaudible because of loud noises from the recorder]

David Boder

Well, I wanted to know, again. You say that you saw the people that were brought into the crematory?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

So, will you tell me such an incident in great detail? Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, we went to, to the bathing house. Was two big rooms. In one room we had to take off our clothes. And go to, to, into the shower room. And we, we were inside, and we undressed on top [he probably means that they were undressing their upper bodies], when two cars arrived with people, Jewish people, I don't know what nationality.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

So, they were wearing their stars. I believe they were Dutch.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Were very bad condition, they could barely walk. Were older people there as well.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Older people, and, and children, too. Well, strong people I did not see at all.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Were only weak and sick people. And then . . .

David Boder

Only in this transport, right?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. And then the Germans threw the Jews down off the car. And beat them with truncheons. And they went into, into the other building.

David Boder

Yes. And you say these people were screaming?

Yanusch Deutsch

Screaming and crying, and they probably knew what was going to happen. With this probably not. And each week we went bathing in multiple transports because there were sixteen hundred Jews there. And, and in the bathroom only two hundred people could go at a time. Well, we went at three in the afternoon, we only saw at three-thirty. And the others went later. Until nine o'clock at night nobody returned from there. Well, if nobody returns by nine o'clock, they probably are . . .

David Boder

Well, you know, maybe they went to a different block?

Yanusch Deutsch

There was no, no other exit.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

I knew these people very well.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

We knew each other well. I worked there [unintelligible].

David Boder

Yes. Where did you work there?

Yanusch Deutsch

In, in the bathing house.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, I worked in the garden, but not for very long. And what more can I tell from Bergen-Belsen? There were soldiers there, so there were no newspapers and everything to be gotten in there. There were soldiers, some of them were decent. They talked to us.

David Boder

SS-people?

Yanusch Deutsch

SS-people. Were Hungarians there, for example. They weren't Nazis.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Rather, the Germans deporâ, deported them from Hungary and made them soldiers. And they did not want to fight at the front, so they were, eh, made guards at the concentration camp Bergen-Belsen. And they were no Nazis, they helped us. And they always told us the political situation. And we were always delighted [possibly: "we were always asking"?] that the, the, eh, in, in, eh, there was the invasion in France. On June 6, the invasion in France started and that same day we were deported from Hungary.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, it was already August, and we heard what there was, in, in France, in Hungary. And we, they brought in newspapers and cigarettes for us. We had marks, German marks, Reich marks from Hungary still. We gave them the marks . . .

David Boder

[interrupts] Were you allowed to keep the marks?

Yanusch Deutsch

We were not searched at all.

David Boder

Where? In the camp?

Yanusch Deutsch

In, from, from, eh, Budapest there we had not been searched.

David Boder

But didn't you have to hand in everything in Budapest?

Yanusch Deutsch

Not in Budapest, in Stuhlweissenburg

David Boder

But you had to hand it in, didn't you?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes, but, but this we received in Budapest in the camp.

David Boder

[unintelligible]?

Yanusch Deutsch

Or was from acquaintances.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

This, eh, this camp in Budapest was very good. We could even go out of the camp.

David Boder

Yes. But wait. First, you were in a camp in your city?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Then you were . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

It was very bad. It was worse than Bergen-Belsen; for three weeks.

David Boder

Then you were . . .

Yanusch Deutsch

In Budapest I was in a camp that was good. We could go outside with a guard and, and guarded, could go inside. The food was enough and much.

David Boder

Go outside with what?

Yanusch Deutsch

With, with, eh, German soldier.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

We paid one hundred pengÃs, one hundred Hungarian pengÃs, and then we could go outside.

David Boder

And in Linz?

Yanusch Deutsch

In Linz we only were one day, we were waiting.

David Boder

So, where did you have to hand in everything?

Yanusch Deutsch

In, in [unintelligible; could either be "my city," or a Hungarian place name].

David Boder

So, how did you have it again Budapest? Oh. From acquaintances [unintelligible].

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. Do you understand it?

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Is it clear?

David Boder

Yes. Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

And they forgot about me. I don't know exactly, I think I had five hundred German marks.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

The money was not big [he may mean, "it was not much money"], but we could not do anything with it. We gave twenty, thirty marks for a newspaper and, I know not what, cigarettes.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And, is very interesting, the Jewish psychologist who [no verb] in the camp.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

[unintelligible] there were many doctors and advocates and intellectuals, many, eighty percent were intellectuals.

David Boder

[asks back, unintelligible]?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. In this, our transport.

David Boder

Yes. Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

Out of Sixteen hundred people.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And when we came to Bergen-Belsen, the very first day everybody started stealing.

David Boder

doubtful] Stealing?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. Stealing. I would leave something there, a piece of meat or I don't know what, and a few minutes later it would not be there anymore.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

And, everybody was stealing. And was, they were all arguing all day long. It was, the nerves fall apart.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we were arguing with our friends and, and, and with everybody, the relatives, and we were cursing, all day long. And when the [unintelligible], we were one or two months in Bergen-Belsen.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Two months.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Only, well, it was not very much. Then we were given the complaint [meaning unclear] . . .

David Boder

Who brought that?

Yanusch Deutsch

One morning the German soldiers came. We had to move to a different camp. [unintelligible] we were in Dachau or to Auschwitz, another camp. And, again, we went into railway cars. We were only, only three hundred.

David Boder

Yes. Men and women?

Yanusch Deutsch

Men and women.

David Boder

Were your parents there?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. Was with my parents. Thank God was with my parents. And there three hundred remained there. And then we went into the railway cars. Again eighty or ninety in a car, and four or five days we were in there, and we didn't know where to and, and [unintelligible]. In Karlsruhe we experienced a German bombardment, Karlsruhe was bombarded. It's a big city and a big train station.

David Boder

What city?

Yanusch Deutsch

Karlsruhe.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. And then we had to go onto a meadow and everybody could leave if they wanted to. Because no guards whatsoever, we were without guards. Without . . .

David Boder

Without soldiers?

Yanusch Deutsch

Without soldiers, yes. We could move away, if we wanted to. I don't know, we did not want to go away, we didn't know where to go. For us, it made no difference anymore where we would be going. That same evening we were in Basel.

David Boder

Yes. In, in Switzerland?

Yanusch Deutsch

In Switzerland.

David Boder

How were you taken across the border?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes. The last German station is Weil. That is, was roughly one kilometer from Basel, from the German.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Still Germany. There we were inspected. They took away all papers that we had.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

In case somebody had money or something like that, this was not taken away. For example, someone had a, a camera with him. This was not taken away.

David Boder

Yes. Why did they not take the camera away?

Yanusch Deutsch

That was not taken. Well, papers were taken away, yes, because they were also afraid of espionage.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And we were there five, five hours. And then we were quickly, immediately in the railway cars. Then the cars were locked. From [unintelligible] within three minutes we were in a big city. Soldiers had come, German soldiers came [unintelligible], German soldiers. Big city, many people. And we were received. And soldiers and Red Cross Sisters and . . .

David Boder

[interrupts] [unintelligible] Sister?

Yanusch Deutsch

Very nice they were. And they led us into a waiting room. There were chairs. There, we saw a chair for the first time after two, after three or four months. And a lamp. And I was afraid to sit in a chair. I just wanted to sit on the earth, on the ground.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And then we received food. First soup and then lighter things, then later chocolate [several words unintelligible]. Then we slowly, slowly understood that we have come to Switzerland and that we are saved.

David Boder

Your entire family?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

And then, what happened in Switzerland?

Yanusch Deutsch

In Switzerland we were in an "Auffanglager" [refugee camp] in Montreux. Was not very good. In another "Auffanglager" as well. Was for two months, for three months. And then I went to Engelberg, in an asylum. My mother was there, too. Was in an English Institute, was there for one year. In an English Institute.

David Boder

Are you still living in Engelberg?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

And your father?

Yanusch Deutsch

My father is in the ZÃrich area, working as an engineer.

David Boder

Yes. So, why can your mother not live with him?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, my, my father does not earn enough so that my mother can live there, too.

David Boder

I see. And in ZÃrich, he is with, with whom?

Yanusch Deutsch

In a company, he works in a private company.

David Boder

I see. Well?

Yanusch Deutsch

He is a very good professional.

David Boder

How far is Engelbrecht [mistaking the name] from here?

Yanusch Deutsch

Engelberg is close to the VierwaldstÃttersee [Lake Lucerne].

David Boder

In . . . ?

Yanusch Deutsch

Do you know where Lucerne is at?

David Boder

How far, eh, . . . ?

Yanusch Deutsch

Three hundred kilometers from here.

David Boder

From here. Can one take the train to there?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

Are there many people there?

Yanusch Deutsch

It is a spa town. You know, one of the most beautiful spa towns in Switzerland. Has approximately one thousand inhabitants. But [unintelligible] not so; there are about five, six thousand spa guests.

David Boder

Yes. But do you live in a camp there, or . . . ?

Yanusch Deutsch

In a, in a hotel. The [unintelligible] is good, the food is good, is content, gets some money there, pocket money. I believe fifty or thirty, forty francs per month.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And she is content there, the environment is wonderful.

David Boder

I see.

Yanusch Deutsch

And I was in the English Institute in Montreux. And later I came here to Geneva, [unintelligible] school.

David Boder

You are studying [mechanics?] now?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes, and at night I prepare for the maturità [similar to a high school diploma], for the [unintelligible] maturitÃ.

David Boder

For what maturitÃ?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes, well. First, for [unintelligible]. I want to [several words unintelligible; "one year"?].

David Boder

Where? In England?

Yanusch Deutsch

No, in Switzerland, in Geneva one can do that.

David Boder

And what do you want to do after that?

Yanusch Deutsch

Afterwards, I want to go to university, if that is possible.

David Boder

What do you want to study?

Yanusch Deutsch

Eh, mechanical engineer.

David Boder

Mechanical engineer. Well, then you must have fared quite well, that it remains different, quite different from how the other people have fared?

Yanusch Deutsch

Yes.

David Boder

How do you explain this? Was that because you were Zionists? Was that because you were Hungarians?

Yanusch Deutsch

In Hungary, in Hungary we were big Zionists.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

And the Germans saved the Zionists. So one did, the Jews saw who can, who can come, in these transports. And of course they chose the Zionists. You know?

David Boder

I see.

David Boder

Were there many rich people with you or were there poor people, too?

Yanusch Deutsch

That differed widely. There were very easy, [corrects himself] very rich people who paid a lot so that they could come, in addition there were the Zionists.

David Boder

Yes.

Yanusch Deutsch

Were a lot, but the majority were poor people, you know? We, for example, paid nothing [several words unintelligible] at all, you know?

David Boder

Yes. How did you pay?

Yanusch Deutsch

The Jewish, the Judenâ, the Judenrat. The Judenrat gave it to, to the Joint and that, in turn, [unintelligible] made.

David Boder

The Joint did not make any money out of you, did it?

Yanusch Deutsch

Well, I don't know how it came about. I, the Joint paid the money but they had to pay something for it beforehand.

David Boder

[In English] This concludes Spool 80 of Yanusch Deutsch, a Hungarian, a Hungarian Jewish child which was saved . . . eh, by special, by a special form of deportation to Belsen, presumably a Zionist, which has to be verified.