David P. Boder Interviews David Lea; August 12, 1946; Paris, France

var transcription = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] Paris, ah, August 12, 1946 at the headquarters of the American Joint Distribution Committee. The interviewee is David Lea with tattoo number 120930 of Auschwitz.

David Boder

[In German] Ãh . . . Also Herr Lea, wollen Sie mir sagen, wo sind sie geboren?

David Lea

In Saloniki.

David Boder

Sie sind geboren in?

David Lea

In Saloniki.

David Boder

In Saloniki.

David Lea

Griechenland [Unterbricht]

David Boder

In Griechenland. Und, Ãh, was fÃr ein StaatsangehÃriger sind sie? I mean, Ãh, von welchem Lande sind sie ein StaatsangehÃriger? Ãh, ich meine, Ãh, sind sie ein Grieche oder sind sie ein Spanier, oder was sind sie?

David Lea

Grieche.

David Boder

Sie sind Grieche, all right. Und sie sind in Saloniki geboren?

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

Nun erzÃhlen sie mich, Ãh, was hat dort passiert, wenn der Krieg angefangen hat?

David Lea

Ich hab gemacht Soldat in MilitÃr, nachher Krieggefang in Krebv. [?] Nachher . . .

David Boder

Sie waren ein Soldat fÃr wen? FÃr die Griechen? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

FÃr die Griechen?

David Lea

Nach Albanien.

David Boder

Nach Albania [verwendet die englische Aussprache]

David Lea

Albania [verwendet nun ebenfalls die englische Aussprache]

David Boder

Und mit wem haben sie ge . . . , gegen wen haben sie gekÃmpft?

David Lea

Gegen Italia.

David Boder

Sie haben gekÃmpft gegen die . . . ?

David Lea

Ich habe gekÃmpft [gleichzeitig mit Interviewer] . . . Krieg gegen Italia.

David Boder

Gegen die Italia.

David Lea

Ja.

David Boder

Nun und dann . . .

David Lea

Nun [unterbricht] und nachher kommen die Deutschen am, Ãh, sechsten April, sechsten Mai, April kommen nach Kreta. Nachher zweiundvierzig Tage gefangen mit den Deutschen nach Kreta.

David Boder

Ja

David Lea

Dann nachher drei Monate Kriegefangen.

David Boder

Ja

David Lea

Komm nach Hause. Nachher sechs Monat . . .

David Boder

Wo sind sie nach Hause gekommen? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

In Saloniki . . . [GerÃusch im Hintergrund] nach Saloniki.

David Boder

Im Haus dann nach Saloniki?

David Lea

Ja, jawohl, in Saloniki. Dann nachher deportieren Auschwitz.

David Boder

Wie lange haben sie gelebt in Saloniki?

David Lea

Gelebt in Saloniki?

David Boder

Nachdem sie nach Hause gekommen sind. Ja, bevor sie deportiert sind.

David Lea

FÃnf Monat.

David Boder

Sie haben in Saloniki fÃnf Monate gelebt.

David Lea

FÃnf Monat, jawohl.

David Boder

Wer waren denn in Saloniki, die Italiener oder die Deutschen?

David Lea

Die Deutsch, auch die Italiener.

David Boder

Die Italiener und auch die Deutschen?

David Lea

Die Deutschen, aber zusammen mit Italiener.

David Boder

Und dann, wieso hat man sie deportiert?

David Lea

Weil ich jÃdisch.

David Boder

Aha, wie haben die bekannt gemacht, dass die Juden kommen sollen, oder was?

David Lea

Die Deutsch hat gemacht ein Ghetto.

David Boder

Oh.

David Lea

Hat gesproche in die jÃdisch, jede JÃdisch von Griechenland wird fahren nach Polonia, nach Krakau, Arbeit. Wird gegeben Arbeit gut, Essen gut. Und sind sie griechisch, kann nicht vorstellen, wann, ich, Ãh, sprechen deutsch stimmt. Wird fahren zusammen mit der Familie.

David Boder

Sie sind mit ihrer Familie?

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

Man hat die ganze Familie genommen.

David Lea

Hat ganze Familie genommen. [gleichzeitig] Mein . . .

David Boder

Von wo? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

Von Saloniki. Mein Familie ist 37 Mann. Nur ich blieb, 36 Mann im Krematorium von Auschwitz. BrÃnde in neun, Ãh, zwei- Ãh kleine VÃlkchen.

David Boder

Also, warten Sie mal. Sie sagen, da waren 37 Personen in ihrer Familie. Welche waren das?

David Lea

Mutter . . .

David Boder

Ihr Vater. [gleichzeitig]

David Lea

Vater, Mutter, Bruder [stÃndige HintergrundgerÃusche]

David Boder

Wie viel BrÃder? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

Drei BrÃder mit zwei Bruder.

David Boder

Drei BrÃder mit . . . ?

David Lea

Mit zwei Bruder . . . Drei BrÃder.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Zwei FrÃulein noch dazu.

David Boder

Was?

David Lea

Zwei FrÃulein.

David Boder

Zwei, Ãh, zwei MÃdchens .

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Mein Mutter, mein Vater, mein Mutter von mein Vater, mein Mutter von meiner Ma und Cousin.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Alle zusammen.

David Boder

Hat man sie alle zusammen arretiert? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Also, alle zusammen 2. April. In neun Mai . . .

David Boder

Warten sie, man hat sie am 2. April arretiert und dann, wie hat man sie weggeschickt? [unterbricht]

David Lea

Ãh, weggeschickt, Ãh, . . . , in Transport.

David Boder

Ja, was fÃr ein kind, Ãh, was fÃr ein Transport war das?

David Lea

In Transport kein Wasser, kein Essen hat gemacht dort, kein hat gemacht die Deutschen bei uns.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Neun Tage in Transport, zugesperrt die TÃr, die FrÃulein also kaputt, halbe Transport vor kommen in Auschwitz, kaputt, tot. . . .

David Boder

Oh, in, in . . . [unterbricht]

David Lea

. . . kein Brot, kein Brot in die Wagon. [spricht trotzdem weiter]

David Boder

Ja, und sie sind gestorben in . . .

David Lea

. . . sind gestorben in Wagon, die halbe Transport.

David Boder

Ja. Hat man nicht jeden Tag los gemacht, die . . .

David Lea

die Wagon?

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Jeden Tag. Nur, man hat gesagt, dort die SS ein bisschen Wasser Ãh macht kaputt. Die SS . . . du kann nicht waschen, Ãh, kaputt mache alle JÃdisch in die Wagon.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Kommen . . . [GerÃusch im Hintergrund] im Mai 43 nach Auschwitz. Die selbe Tage haben zwei danach getrennt, [unverstÃndlich], 36 Mann. Nur . . .

David Boder

Was heiÃt man hat sie getrennt? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

In Krematorium.

David Boder

Ja, warum hat man sie nicht genommen?

David Lea

Warum â warum, ich nicht Nummer von 25 Jahre

David Boder

Oh, waren alle die Ãbrigen Ãlter von 25 Jahren?

David Lea

Jawohl, 25 Jahre alt bis 30 Jahre.

David Boder

Aha. 25 Jahre mit 30 Jahren hat gepasst.

David Lea

25 Jahre [gleichzeitig] . . . Ja in Auschwitz.

David Boder

Ja, und die anderen?

David Lea

Die Anderen, die brennen.

David Boder

Was haben sie gesehen? Haben sie gesehen, wie man . . .

David Lea

Ich kam zusammen, keine Vorstellung hat gemacht die Deutsch, nur hat gemacht die Selektion. Die junge, bis 7 und 13, bis 20 Jahre, bis 30 Jahre [verbessert sich] und die anderen, sagen Deutsch, gehen zu Auto, die Mutter und die Vater, nachher kommt nach Revier.

David Boder

Oh. Man hat sie in Autos weg?

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Autos weg. Deutsche gesagt, welche krank, die Mutter die Vater, gute Esser nicht, gehen nach Revier. Nachher zwei Tage uns hat gesagt die SS, wo ist mein Familie. [UnverstÃndlich] sage, noch drei vier Tage und sie kaputt. Nachher ein Monat, kÃnnen sie vorstellen, mein Familie, ganze Familie von jÃdisch nach Krematorium. Ich, Ãh, bin 44 Novem . . . .

David Boder

Ja, Ãh. Nehmen sie die Hand runter.

David Lea

Ja, 44 Novembre, ich bin in Auschwitz, in Lager Auschwitz. Hat gebrennet sechs, Ãh, Moment . . .

David Boder

[In English] He's writing down the number. All right. [Pause]

David Boder

[In German] Six hunderttausend.

David Lea

In Novembre.

David Boder

In ein Monat?

David Lea

Moment, In Novembre.

David Boder

Ja

David Lea

Hat gebrennet die Deutsch, hat gemachet Unsinn. Die Kommando, Sonderkommando, arbeitendes Sonderkommando Krematorium. In sieben . . .

David Boder

Haben sie im Krematorium gearbeitet? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

Ja in Bayern. In siebenundzwanzig Tage hat gebrennet sechs, sechzig, hunderttausend jÃdisch ungarisch.

David Boder

60.000 ungarische Juden.

David Lea

Ja . . .

David Boder

Haben sie im Krematorium gearbeitet? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

Jawohl. [gleichzeitig] Jawohl, ich arbeite Krematorium. Ich dieselbe hab gebrennet. Sechs und tausend, Ãh, sechzig, Ãh . . .

David Boder

Sechshundertausend.

David Lea

Sechshundertausend jÃdisch hat gebrennt bis zwa, zwa-, Ãh, bis siebenundzwanzig Tage. Nach Tage, jeden Tag hat gebrennt die Krematorium von, Ãh, Auschwitz.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Nachher komm die Russisch. 18 April. 18 Junai von Radom zu Lager Ausschwitz, die Russisch komm 28 Junai. Nachher ich fahre Buchenwald. Special . . . [GerÃusche im Hintergrund]

David Boder

Wann waren sie in Buchenwald?

David Lea

In Buchenwald ich hab gemacht drei Monat, zwei waren Dauchau, ein Woche lang FÃrth, nachher kommen 29 April die amerikanisch Truppe nach Dachau auf Befehl.

David Boder

Aha, ja. Und haben sie befreit.

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

Also, sie sagen, dass sie haben gearbeitet in Auschwitz im Krematorium?

David Lea

Ja, Ja, Jawohl.

David Boder

Ãh . . .

David Lea

Sonderkommando.

David Boder

Im Sonderkommando. Also beschreiben sie, wie, was ist im Krematorium zugegangen? Was war das Krematorium? [Pause] Oh. [Pause]

David Boder

[In English] He's lighting a cigarette. He wanted to roll one, but I offered him an American cigarette and light my own.

David Boder

[In German] Also sagen sie, sie haben gearbeitet im Krematorium. Wollen sie mir beschreiben, wie hat man im Krematorium gearbeitet und wie hat das Krematorium ausgesehen?

David Lea

In, also wie man hat gearbeitet . . . ? [zÃgert]

David Boder

Ja, also wie hat man, wie hat das Krematorium ausgesehen?

David Lea

Jawohl, ja. Kommt Transporte von jedem . . . kommt Transporte von ganz Europa jÃdische . . .

David Boder

Ein bisschen nÃher. [unterbricht]

David Lea

Kommt Transporte von ganz Europa jÃdische. Junge von zwei Monat, von fÃnf Jahre, von sieben Jahre, von zehn Jahre, von achtzehn Jahre. Mensch von 80 Jahre, 90 Jahre bleibt dort. Kommt nach, Ãh, Krematorium. Ist ein groÃes Saale. Schreibe Franzose Ãh Deutsch. Mein, Ãh, â sage, ein Affiche in Krematorium sage, alles ausziehen. Mache bade. Die Menschen machen bade. Ich die, Ãh, ich gesund, wann ich . . . wann ich bade, ich gesund. Dinge, die ich kann nicht verstehen, was bestimmt spreche, alles ausziehen, zusammen, die MÃnner mit die FrÃulein zusammen, die Frauen von 80 Jahre, die MÃdchen von 20 Jahre, alle zusammen. Ãh, wann die zusammen alles, bekommen die Seife und die â was ist diese . . .

David Boder

Handtuch.

David Lea

Handtuch, Seife. Ein SS von anderes Zimmer, gucke, alles schon, alles schon er-, erledigt, alles schon fertig. Alles schon ist aus. Hat gemacht auf die Luminette und die Gas. in zwei Minut, ein bis zwei Minut, kaputt zwei, dreitausend Mann.

David Boder

Sind sie richtig gestorben?

David Lea

Richtig gestorben. Nachher, die klein Junge, zwei, Ãh, vier Jahre, drei Jahre. Nur bekommen . . . Ãh . . . Ãh hier . . . [scheint auf seine Nase zu zeigen]Blut, Ãh, Blut, Bluten.

David Boder

Nasebluten.

David Lea

Nase-, Nasebluten von, von Ãh Gift. Nur die Klein hat geschreiet. Mama, Mama, Mama. Aber die Mutter nachher, nach ein, Ãh, ein Minut die Mutter war fertig, die ganze Familie. Nachher kommen Unsinn. Ich Ventilateur, Ventilateur.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Hat gemacht auch Unsinn, dieselbe, die Sonderkommando, die Ventilateur.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Die Gas weg . . . Raus.

David Boder

Raus, ja.

David Lea

(undeutlich)

David Boder

Ja, ja.

David Lea

Bekommen TÃne.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

SchmeiÃen die Tot in die Wagonnet . . .

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

und nachher in die Krematorium.

David Boder

Also, ja. Was war die Krematorium? Ein Ofen? [Pause] Was war es? Ein Ofen, Ãh.. ein . . . ?

David Lea

Ko-, Ko-, Kohle.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Kohl, Kohl..

David Boder

Ãh, yes. War es ein Ofen oder war es ein . . . ?

David Lea

Nicht. Ãh, Krematorium, Krematorium . . . [unterbricht] und die . . .

David Boder

Ja, ja. Wie viel Menschen auf einmal hat man verbrennen kÃnnen? [unterbricht]

David Lea

Wann ich, Ãh, mit Transport kommen jeden Tag zehn Transport von 20 bis 40 Tausend Mann. Acht Mann ein Krematorium, zwanzig Minuten gebrennet. Nach die Tage jeden Tag Gebrenne gemacht in Krematorium. Jeden Tag, nach Sabbat, jeden Tag Gebrenne in Krematorium. In Krematorium war Arbeit ungefÃhr 5, Ãh, 1.500 Mann. 500 Mann jede Stunde, jede acht Stunde Arbeit. Nachher dann tauschen, andere 500 Mann. Und die arbeiten in Sonderkommando, gut gegessen.

David Boder

Hat man ihnen gut zu Essen gegeben?

David Lea

Ja, jawohl. Nachher die 1.500 Mann arbeite nur drei Monat. Denn nachher die SS hat gemacht kaputt, mit, Ãh, die ungef. die 1500 Mann.

David Boder

Wie haben sie sie kaputt gemacht?

David Lea

WarumâNichts wolle sprechen, was sie da machen in Krematorium.

David Boder

Aber wie haben sie sie kaputt gemacht. Auch im Krematorium?

David Lea

Auch im Krematorium. Und die SS macht kaputt in Krematorium dieselbe, die, die, Ãh, Sonderkommando. Nachher drei Monat dabei, nachher in Krematorium.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Gebrennt dieselbe. Ich nicht gebrennt, wann kommen die Russisch.

David Boder

Aha.

David Lea

Wenn mein Kommando, die Sonderkommando, 1500 Mann nicht gebrennet, dann kommen die Russisch. Und die Deutschen, keine Zeit, keine Zeit. Wenn ich hab Zeit, och, hundert gebrennet.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

In, Ãh, 43 . . . die Krematorium, vier, vier . . . [HintergrundgerÃusch] . . . Nummer Krematorium vier, die Griechisch von Saloniki, Athen hat gemachet ein Bomb. Bombe macht kaputt.

David Boder

Wer hat gemacht?

David Lea

Die Griechisch von Athen. In, Ãh, 34.

David Boder

In, Ãh, Ãhm 44.

David Lea

44.

David Boder

Waren es jÃdische Griechen?

David Lea

JÃdische Griechisch, zusammen mit den Polacken.

David Boder

Zusammen mit den Polacken haben sowas getan.

David Lea

Ja. Hat . . .

David Boder

Aufgerissen.

David Lea

Aufgerissen, ja, hat Munition in Krematorium vier. Griechische von Athena und Polack jÃdisch von Ghetto von Warschaua.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Hat gemacht kaputt Krematorium vier.

David Boder

Wo, in, Ãh, Auschwitz?

David Lea

Nein, in Birkenau.

David Boder

In Birkenau. Genau Auschwitz und Birkenau. Ãhm, wie haben sie das Krematorium kaputt gemacht?

David Lea

Die jÃdisch â Ãh, griechisch und jÃdisch Polack.

David Boder

Aha und was hat man denen getan?

David Boder

Ãh, sind sie leben geblieben die Menschen?

David Lea

Alles kaputt, drin in Krematorium.

David Boder

Die Menschen, die drin waren?

David Lea

. . . die auch. Die Menschen, die drin waren. [Unterbricht] Wann die, die, Ãh, Mensch ist raus [unverstÃndlich] ist mit die Gewehrmaschin. Die SS sage, wenn ich Unsinn mache in Krematorium, ist unser kaputt. Alles zerstÃrt, drinnen mit die Mensch, die jÃdische Polack und die jÃdische von Griechenland. Nachher zwei Minut . . . kaputt

David Boder

Haben sie das selbst gesehen?

David Lea

Ich hab gesehen nicht, wann ich bin im Revier. [HintergrundgerÃusch]

David Boder

Was?

David Lea

Ich bin krank.

David Boder

Oh sie waren krank und sie waren im Revier.

David Lea

[unverstÃndlich, da gleichzeitig mit Interviewer] . . . war in Revier, nicht gesehen, aber doch Bum.

David Boder

Sie haben gehÃrt, wie es passiert ist.

David Lea

Alles ja. [unterbricht]

David Boder

Und nachdem man die Krematorien aufgerissen hat, hat man noch Leute verbrannt nachdem?

David Lea

Nicht.

David Boder

Nein, man hat keinerlei . . .

David Lea

Kein. [gleichzeitig]

David Boder

Keinerlei.

David Lea

Ãh, vor zwei Tage evakuiert die Lager von Birkenau, SS hat gemacht kaputt, alles Krematorium.

David Boder

Alles selbst kaputt gemacht.

David Lea

Von zwei Tage evakuiert die Lager von Birkenau. 18 April, evakuiert bei uns Lager. 16 nein 18, Ãh, 18 . . .

David Boder

Nein, nein, nein, nehmen sie die Hand runter. [Unterbricht] Ja.

David Lea

18 Junai, im April, 18 Junai 45 evakuiert die Lager Auschwitz. 16 Junai 45, die Deutsch hat gemacht kaputt die Krematorien. Sechs Krematorien hat gemacht kaputt die Deutsch.

David Boder

Sie selbst? Und wie viel haben die Griechen kaputt gemacht?

David Lea

Die Griechen kaputt und auch die Polack kaputt.

David Boder

Ja, aber wieviel Krematorien haben die Griechen . . .

David Lea

Ein Krematorium. [unterbricht] Ein Krematorium. Ein Krematorium vier. Dieselbe, die jÃdische Polack hat gemacht die Krematorium vier kaputt.

David Boder

Aha, und den Rest haben die SS kaputt gemacht.

David Lea

SS kaputt gemacht.

David Boder

Nun, also wo sind sie gegangen nachdem, Ãh, wer hat sie befreit, die Russen oder die Amerikaner?

David Lea

Amerikanisch. 29 April 45.

David Boder

Von welchem Lager?

David Lea

Von Dachau.

David Boder

Von Dachau. Ãh, war in Dachau auch ein Krematorium?

David Lea

In Dachau Krematorium, 44 hat gemacht nur ein Krematorium. Warum hat gemacht. In Dachau ist verboten fÃr die jÃdisch.

David Boder

Was?

David Lea

In Dachau ist verboten . . .

David Boder

In Dachau war's verboten von jÃdischer Rang. Keine Juden in Dachau.

David Lea

Ja. Keine Juden, kein Krematorium.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Nachher. 5, Ãh, 5, Ãh 45 komme ich, hat gemachet noch ein Krematorium. FÃr alles, fÃr die jÃdische, fÃr die Arier. Nachher in April, in 29 April . . .

David Boder

Ja. Sagen sie Haben sie in irgendwelch einem Lager Zigeuner gesehen?

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

ErzÃhlen sie mir von den Zigeunern.

David Lea

In Lager, in Lager von Birkenau.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Hat gesehen Zigeunerâsieben, acht tausend Mann Zigeuner, nicht jÃdisch, zusammen mit die Kinder, mit die alles. Gut gegessen, drei, fÃnf, sieben Monat. Nachher, ein Nacht, eine Stunde, einer von FrÃh hat gemacht die Deutsche antreten hat ganze Zigeunerlager.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Hat ganze Zigeunerlager, nachher zwei Stunde acht neun Mann, acht neun Tausend Mann zusammen mit die Kinderchen kaputt, alles Zigeuner. Und nachher man in Lager Birkenau nicht gucken mehr Zigeuner.

David Boder

Also man hat alle Zigeuner tot gemacht.

David Lea

Alle tot.

David Boder

Hat man sie auch durch die Gaskammern geschickt?

David Lea

Alles, alle durch die Gas.

David Boder

Mh. Warum hat man das getan?

David Lea

Ich weià nicht warum.

David Boder

Sie wissen nicht warum

David Lea

Jawohl

David Boder

Ãh. Und wer hat nachher im Block gewohnt, wo die Zigeuner gewohnt haben?

David Lea

Ja. In Block Zigeuners gewohnt. Oder Block fÃr Zigeuner, nur Zigeuner. Warum istâZigeuner bleibt, warum nicht Arier, kein SS zusammen ziehen lassen.

David Boder

Aber wenn man alle Zigeuner tot, Ãh, wenn man alle Zigeuner getÃtet hat, wer hat nachher im Block gelebt?

David Lea

Die Block ist aus.

David Boder

Der Block ist . . .

David Lea

Gesperrt. [unterbricht]

David Boder

Der Block ist gesperrt gewesen.

David Lea

Gesperrt.

David Boder

Ja . . . Und was tun sie jetzt Herr Lea?

David Lea

Ich arbeite in Komitee [unverstÃndlich, HintergrundgerÃusch].

David Boder

Sie arbeiten im Komitee in [unverstÃndlich].

David Lea

Ich hab keine Familie.

David Boder

Was?

David Lea

Keine Familie.

David Boder

Sie haben keine Familie.

David Lea

36 Mannâkaputt.

David Boder

Aha, und Ãh, was wollen sie tun nachher? Wie sind sie nach Frankreich gekommen?

David Lea

Warum in Griechenland? Ich hab . . .

David Boder

Wie sind sie gekommen? [Unterbricht] Vonâwie alt sind sie? Wie alt sind sie?

David Lea

Ich bin, wie alt bin ich? . . . . 28.

David Boder

Sie sind 28 Jahre alt. Allright. Und jetzt stehen sie mit dem Joint?

David Lea

Jawohl.

David Boder

Haben sie Verwandte in Amerika?

David Lea

Kein.

David Boder

Keine. Haben sie Verwandte in PalÃstina?

David Boder

[In English] This concludes um, um Spool 41, of which half is Ms. Precker and the other one is Mr. Lea. After the machine stopped, he suggested that he has something more to tell.

David Boder

This is Spool number 42. Mr. David Lea continued.

David Boder

[In German] Mr. Lea sie sagten, . . . .was wollten sie sagen von Auschwitz?

David Lea

Von Warschau.

David Boder

Oh. Sie sagten, sie waren in Warschau. Wieso sind sie nach Warschau gekommen?

David Lea

Ich ging nach Warschau von nach Birkenau sechs Septembre. Jom Kippur.

David Boder

Ja. Wieso sind sie befreit von Birkenau gewesen?

David Lea

Von Birkenau Transport von die jÃdisch nach Arbeit in Warschaua.

David Boder

Oh, die â wer hat sie genommen dort?

David Lea

Die SS.

David Boder

Die SS hat sie genommen von Birkenau nach Auschwitz, Ãh nach Warschau. ErzÃhlen sie, was hat dort passiert. [Lea spricht stÃndig bestÃtigend dazwischen]

David Lea

Arbeit in Ghetto in die Hause von die jÃdisch. Das ganze Ghetto ist, die Ghetto von Warschaua, [HintergrundgerÃusch] zweihundert Meter, so lange von Friedhof von Warschaua ist jÃdisch. Ich nicht verstehe die Stadt, warum, ich nicht spreche Polack .

David Boder

Polnisch, ja.

David Lea

Die, die Leute deportiert Polack, wenn ich jetzt nach, Ãh, in Amerika, als Stadt, zwei- zweihundert, Ãh zweihundert Meter ist lange die Friedhof, von die jÃdisch, nach mein Lager.

David Boder

Aha

David Lea

Arbeit . . .

David Boder

Warum hat man sie geschickt von Auschwitz nach Warschau? [unterbricht]

David Lea

Warum ich geschicket. Als junger, gesund Mensch. Arbeit.

David Boder

WerâWo haben sie sollen arbeiten?

David Lea

Arbeiten in die Stadt, mit die Pickel, mit die Pickel, mit die Scheffel [Schaufel]. Kein Essen, nur 150 Gramm Brot jeden Tag, Mittag ein Liter Wasser. So, Arbeit, Ãh, 40 Stunden.

David Boder

Mh. Also, was ist passiert?

David Lea

Ich nachher SS hat gesproche. [Pause]

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Jeder JÃdisch von Arbeit, in die Lager von die jÃdisch, alles kaputt. Die Lager ist so lange, so weit, 50 Meter von Pawiak to Warschau.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Arbeiten in die Bunki, [unverstÃndlich] dieselbe deutsch. Junge hat ganze Familie jÃdisch mit die Kinderchen kaputt hat gemacht. Die Kampf mit die Deutsch von 39. Nachher SS mit zu vielleicht, komm rÃber, bei uns in die Bunki. Weil jÃdisch, wann sie suchen, wann sie suche JÃdisch in die Bunki. Ich zuviel jÃdisch in die Bunki, nicht kaputt, also kaputt, Ãh, also nicht kaputt. Ich genommen hab Gewehrmaschine, ge- Ãh gestohlen.

David Boder

Was sind die Bunki? Was ist der Bund?

David Lea

Der Bunki ist jÃdisch, Verband, noch machen Sabotage, die nachmachen Sabotage drinnen in die Ghetto. Und gucken in die StraÃe die Deutsch mach kaputt. Auf Arbeit, Arbeit acht, Ãh, neun Monat in, Ãh, Warschau.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

Nachher Lager von Warschaua evakuiert.

David Boder

Ja.

David Lea

In Lager von Warschau ist groÃer Transport, Jom Kippur, kommen in, Ãh, Warschaua, nur griechisch, jÃdische Barack. Warum, Unsinn diese Barack griechisch, nicht verstehen Polack, verstehen England. Die Deutsch hat gesagt, welche nicht verstehen Polack, kommen in Warschaua. Hat gesagt, guter [unverstÃndlich], gut [unverstÃndlich]. Unsinn, die jÃdische Barack gehen in Warschaua. Warum, die Deutsch Angst. Wenn ich arbeit in Warschaua und ich verstehen Polack, muss weg. Aber nur die jÃdische Barack nicht verstehen Polack. Die Deutsch kein Angst bei uns. Nachher JÃdisch Barack kaputt, komm . . . Polack JÃdische. Polack JÃdische, ungarische JÃdische . . . Lithuan JÃdische . . . von Krakau JÃdische, von Ukrainisch JÃdische. 40 Stunden Arbeit die Tage, Deutschlager, nachher die Nacht Appell drei Stunden, Schuhe, keine Schuhe, keine StrÃmpfe, Schuhe von Holz . . . kein Handschuh, Arbeit einmal Schuhe, einmal Mantel . . . ein Mantel. Wann kommen in die, in die Platz von Arbeit, die Kapos, deutsch, sagen, ausziehe die Mantel. (Unsere/Unsinn) ausziehe die Mantel, hat gemacht ausziehen, was man hat gesagt. Warum, tot schlagen. DrauÃen kalt jede Tage, mit die Schaufel mit die Pickel, eine Stunde Arbeit, nachher kaputt.

David Boder

Was heiÃt kaputt?

David Lea

Von, Ãh, . . . von Kalt, kein Esse, kein . . . kein Esse, kein Vitamins, keine Schlafen, zu viel LÃuse. Die . . .

David Boder

LÃuse? [unterbricht]

David Lea

LÃuse zu viel. Typhus in die Lager von Warschaua. Typhus jeden Tag 80, 90, 100 Mann kaputt. In Revier, kein Essen in Revier. Nun kommt die SS, die [unverstÃndlich] SS, ein deutsch, sagen alle jÃdisch kaputt. Mit die ein, was ist . . . . Macht kaputt.

David Boder

Mit was? Mit Einspritze?

David Lea

Ja, so [scheint es ihm zu zeigen]

David Boder

Mit Injection.

David Lea

Ja, Injection in Revier. In Lager von Warschaua, die Revier ist Block 7.

David Boder

[In English] He demonstrates by hand, he didn't know the word. There were people that were killed by injection. No?

David Lea

In Lager von Warschaua die Revier ist Block 7 oder Block 8. Die Chef von Revier ist ein Deutsch. Schlecht die jÃdische kaputt. [unverstÃndlich] in die Krematorium, alles jÃdisch, eh kaputt. Kein jÃdisches nachhause mehr. Nachher weg in Lager Landsberg. Ist ob Bayern. Ich Arbeit in Landsberg. Die LagerfÃhrer verstand mich von Birkenau. Die Ãh hat gearbeit in Sonderkommando. Eine Tag hat gesagt, kommen sie, arbeite in Friedhofkommando . . .

David Boder

In welchem Kommando?

David Lea

In Friedhofkommando nach Landsberg, Bayern. Ich hab dieselbe, mein Kommando, noch 15 Mann ich 16 Mann alles. 12000, 5, 1500 hundert 37 jÃdisch in ein Monat Arbeit. Diese Lager . . .

David Boder

Wie haben sie die Nummer gewusst? Wie haben sie gezÃhlt?[unterbricht]

David Lea

Das mache die [unverstÃndlich]. ich zweihundert tot, 180 tot, die LagerfÃhrung hat gemachet Report. Jetzt holte ich 50 Polack tot, 20 griechisch jÃdisch tot, 10 ungarische, 10 Slowak, mache Report. In ein Monat Arbeit 12 tausend vier hundert 37 kaputt. Diese Friedhof, kein MaÃstab, kann kein Mensch vorstellen, nur die 16 Mann, was arbeit.

David Boder

Wie haben sie GrÃber gemacht? FÃr jeden ein separates Grab? [Unterbricht]

David Lea

Vierhundert Mann ein Loch. Dreihundert Mann ein Loch. Nachher hat gemacht tief zwei Meter 40 Zentimeter.

David Boder

Was?

David Lea

Zwei Meter 40 Zentimeter dick.

David Boder

Tief

David Lea

Tief. Kommen jeden Wagen, jeden Wagen 40 tot. Kommt zusammen die Wagen nach die Tot, die SS Unsinn die JÃdisch, wollte ein bisschen (undeutlich). Die SS nix hat gelassen. Hat gesehen Kamerad Arbeit in, mit die [unverstÃndlich] hat gesagt, ist mein Bruder, mein Cousin. Ein bisschen gelesen. Kein bisschen gelesen . . .

David Boder

Kein bisschen was?

David Lea

Gelesen.

David Boder

Ah . . .

David Lea

Nix. Tot, tot die Mensch, die Bruder . . .

David Boder

Ah gebetet.

David Lea

Gelesen. Bracha

David Boder

Aha, zu machen Broche. No? Hat er . . . [wird unterbrochen]

David Lea

Die SS hat geschlagen tot. SS ein Tag hat der Kamerad, hat Kamerad bekommen fÃr beten. Gegen die SS sagen, nimm mein Portion Brot sagen die SS . . .

David Boder

Warten Sie, Sie sagen . . . [unterbricht, Lea spricht jedoch weiter]

David Lea

. . . mein Kamerad sagen, diese, die Tot ist mein Bruder. Wollen ein bisschen gelesen. Die SS genommen die Pick und die Schaufel hauen die Kopf, zusammen mit die Bruder kaputt.

David Boder

Aha, um, a person has asked permission to pray over his brother who he had to bury. But he tells the SS killed him with the Shovel and buried them both. All right.

David Lea

Nachher, ein Tage. 400 tot, Ãh, 400. In jede Loch 400 tot, 300, 350. Nachher zusperre die tot mit die [unverstÃndlich]. Die Lager dort hat gesagt, mache, kann man sagen, die Loch, damit man nicht versteht, warum tot diese Leut. Die Friedhof hat gemacht und ich in Bayern, in die Mitte.

David Boder

Wo ist das? In Warschau?

David Lea

Nicht in Warschau. In Landsberg, Bayern.

David Boder

In, in . . . ?

David Lea

In Landsberg, Bayern.

David Boder

Bavaria?

David Lea

Bavaria.

David Boder

Ja

David Lea

Bavaria.

David Boder

Was fÃr ein Lager war in Landsberg?

David Lea

In Landsberg ist, ganze Landsberg ist Endlager.

David Boder

Aha.

David Lea

Lager eins, Lager zwei, Lager drei, Lager vier, Lager fÃnf, Lager sechs, Lager sieben, Lager acht, Lager neun, Lager zehn, Lager elf. In die Lager vier, Lager sieben, Lager sieben, ist Lager nur QuarantÃne

David Boder

Nur QuarantÃne?

David Lea

QuarantÃne macht kaputt die JÃdische mit die Injection. In die Lager eins ist die Ober, in Lager eins ist ein Lager, Arbeitslager. Die Name ist Tannberg. Die schlechte Mensch . . .

David Boder

Welcher Name? [unterbricht]

David Lea

Tannberg. Deutsch. Tannberg, Tannberg. Diese SS jetzt ist in NÃrnberg. Ein Kamerad von mir, russisch-jÃdisch. Die Name ist Kosakov. Gehen Prozess nach ..

David Boder

NÃrnberg.

David Lea

NÃrnberg. Gucken diesen. In die Prozess hat gesprochen die Kommandant von Tribunal amerikanisch. Diese, die schlechte Menschen und die JÃdisch hat gemacht 29, und dieselbe. Nachher ich weià nicht, was ich hÃtt gemacht, mit diese SS. In Lager vier, ist dieselbe von Lager fÃnf, Lager sieben. QuarantÃne. 27. April 44, 45. Die FDG. Chef SS von Revier.

David Boder

Was ist FDG?

David Lea

FDG ist Chef von Revier. SS. Unter die DÃportÃ, Chef von die Revier SS sage, FDG, hat gebrennet. Die Leute, ist zu viel, ist zu viel kranke, hat gebrennet. Mensch Gesund. Mehr von 3000 Mann mit die Gas. Nachher, zwei Stunde kommen die Amerikanisch. Die Amerikanisch hat, Ãh . . . , hat gesagt, jeden Deutsch von Bayern, kommt gucke, was gemacht die Deutsch. Die Mensch gesund hat gebrennet, mit die Gas, mit die Flamme.

David Boder

Ja, ja.

David Lea

Ein Kamerad . . .

David Boder

Wie hat man sie gebrannt? Mit . . . [unterbricht]

David Lea

Mit die, Ãh, die Flamm.

David Boder

Mit Flame throwers?

David Lea

Jawohl, jawohl, jawohl.

David Boder

Gesunde Menschen hat er verbrannt mit, Ãh, Feuer-, Ãh, werfer.

David Lea

Warum getan. Die FDG hat gesehen die Amerikanisch ist nach, ist zwanzig Kilometer nach Bayern, daher hat gemacht kaputt die jÃdisch. Nicht jÃdisch, nicht vorstellen, warum ist zuviel krank, kein Essen. Bis MÃrz, bis April 45, bekommen in Lager vier nur 80 Gramm Brot jeden Tag. Kein, kein Margarine, kein Essen. Mittag ein Liter nur Wasser. So jeden Tage, 200, 300 JÃdisch kaputt. In zwei Monat war ganze Lager kaputt. Nachher zwei Monat trage andere JÃdisch von Lager fÃnf, von Lager drei, von Lager zwei, von Lager neun, von Lager elf, elf. Ist dieselbe, hat gesehn, hat gegucket. In Lager drei. Drei April 44. JÃdische, Lithuan, macht kaputt, die JÃdische krank, die Tot. JÃdische. Esse die.

David Boder

Mh?

David Lea

Die jÃdische, die JÃdische . . .

David Boder

Haben gegessen . . .

David Lea

Haben gegessen, die tot JÃdische. Haben . . .

David Boder

Ja, in wel, in welch . . . [unterbricht]

David Lea

Ja, haben gegessen [gleichzeitig] In Lager drei. In Bayern. Bayern

David Boder

Ãh,wo war das? In Dachau, in . . .

David Lea

Nicht. In Landsberg, Bayern. Lager drei.

David Boder

Aha. In Landsberg. Haben die Ju- Ãh die Menschen gegessen von den Menschen?

David Lea

Ja. Ich selbe hab gegucket.

David Boder

Ja, sie selbst haben gesehen.

David Lea

Ich selbe. In Lager drei.

David Boder

Ja, nun. Hat man den gar nichts gegessen gegeben?

David Lea

Gar nichts gegessen. Nachher die SS hat gesperrt die Lager, hat gesagt, kein Dinner.

David Boder

All right. Sagen sie das . . . KÃnnen sie dasselbe in Griechisch sagen? In Griechisch? KÃnnen sie griechisch sprechen?

David Lea

Ja, ein wenig.

David Boder

Sagen sie mir dasselbe in Griechisch.

David Lea

Sprechen sie nicht spanisch. Warum nicht spanisch?

David Boder

[In Spanish] ÂUsted habla espaÃol?

David Lea

Claro que hablo espaÃol.

David Boder

Oh! ÂPor quà no me dijo? Bueno, dÃgame otra vez del caso de cuando . . . del canibalismo

David Lea

ÂEn espaÃol?

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

SeÃores y seÃoras. Yo me topà con dos soldados, con tres soldados, en el campo de Landsberg, campo 3, en Baviera. DespuÃs de 15 a 20 dÃas que no tenÃamos nada de comida, nosotros los deportados, habÃa muchos muertos, tomamos una tarde a las 10 y un cuarto de una hora de la tarde, tomamos los cuchillos y curtimos a nuestros compaÃeros judÃos que ya estaban muertos. Y comimos la carne suya.

David Boder

ÂUsted tambiÃn?

David Lea

Claro. Me acuerdo, el 3 de febrero del 45. En todo el campo, estÃbamos judÃos espaÃole de [ininteligible] y los restantes eran judÃos de [ininteligible], de Varsovia, de Lituana, de BÃlgica, de [ininteligible], de Italia y de otras ciudades que estaban ocupadas por las bÃrbaras armadas enemigas de la Europa.

David Boder

ÂY?

David Lea

Nosotros sufrimos tanto tiempo, mucho. Tres aÃos en el campo. DespuÃs que la comida era muy poca, no nos alcanzaba y trabajÃbamos 14 horas al dÃa.

David Boder

Hable mÃs despacio. ÂEn quà trabajaban ustedes?

David Lea

Nosotros trabajÃbamos en hacer fortificaciones.

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

Con la pala y la [ininteligible]. DespuÃs que laborÃbamos [ininteligible] como podÃamos trabajar, nos maltrataban con los palos y [ininteligible] a muerte.

David Lea

En un transporte que vino de Varsovia, en 1944, cuando los rusos se aproximaban a Varsovia. El mÃs grande transporte y el mÃs grande desastre de la historia judÃa fue de Varsovia que nos deportaron con trenes 18 dÃas. En trenes de animales, acerrados noche y dÃa, guardados por cuatro bÃrbaros de las SS con las metralletas, sin agua, sin nada de comida, el sol tanto . . . Y se murieron mÃs de 8000 personas. Ãramos 8726 personas y tornamos al campo de [ininteligible] 725 personas. Los 8000 fueron matados o por el hambre, o por los SS, o por la sequÃa.

David Boder

Bueno, Âese transporte iba de dÃnde?

David Lea

Ese transporte venÃa de Varsovia . . .

David Boder

De Varsovia a . . .

David Lea

A Dachau. Los rusos se acercaban de Varsovia y los alemanes nos querÃan . . . nos . . . necesitaban algo de nosotros para trabajar y tomar al interior de Alemania. No nos querÃan matar y para eso nos encerraron en unos vagones, a 120 personas en un vagÃn de animales.

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

Cerrados noche y dÃa, sin un . . .

David Boder

ÂPor quà lo llama "vagÃn de animales"? ÂNo era un vagÃn de carga?

David Lea

No. No disponÃan. Y ellos no disponÃan, les estaba . . . era . . . era prohibido . . . era prohibido para los judÃos.

David Boder

AjÃ.

David Lea

EstÃbamos ahÃ, maltratados por unas bestias y nosotros levantÃbamos las manos a Dios [ininteligible] que no podemos mÃs sufrir. Mismo que querÃamos [ininteligible] de pillar, todos al lado. El SS nos decÃa "ÂquiÃn quiere pillar?", mas nosotros ya veÃamos que otros camaradas iban a pillar, iban a facer lo que sea . . .

David Boder

AjÃ. En el carro.

David Lea

En el carro. VenÃa el SS y con la metralleta lo mataba y nosotros Ãramos [ininteligible] nos pillar en los pantalones . . . eh . . . todo. Y a veces, querÃamos salir de cuerpo, salÃamos en la mano y lo arrojÃbamos por un buraco que habÃamos fecho en el vagÃn

David Boder

Esto fue en el mes de . . .

David Lea

Junio y julio del 44

David Boder

Junio y julio . . .

David Lea

SÃ. Junio y julio, porque no me puedo acordar exactamente

David Boder

SÃ. No es importante.

David Lea

porque habÃamos perdido la moral, cual la familia, cual las finanzas y cual no tenemos fuerza. Todos los judÃos que tornaron de los campos de concentraciÃn de Alemania puede ser que estemos buenos de cuerpo, de facha, mas en el interior no estamos buenos. Estamos todos [ininteligible].

David Boder

ÂPor quÃ?

David Lea

Porque el trabajo era mucho, la poca comida, la leÃa que nos daban, el frÃo y mucho. Estamos todos jalados en los pulmones, quien con reumatismo, quien con asma, quien los pulmones y . . . la mÃs parte tienen . . . pierden . . . pierden su moral. Yo estoy hablando, un judÃo griego, [ininteligible] separadito. Si me acuerdo mÃs . . . podÃamos [ininteligible] hablar mÃs seguido, no me estoy acordando.

David Lea

La desgracia que hubo al 44 en el campo de Birkenau, mÃs o menos no podÃa hablar porque no soy bueno en alemÃn . . . no me explico, mas en seguida lo voy a hablar en espaÃol. En el 44, a la fin del 44, en noviembre, en el campo de Birkenau, en septiembre, octubre o noviembre, 600.000 hungareses judÃos vinieron en Birkenau. DespuÃs que los crematorios no daban abasto para quemar a los judÃos, los SS ordenaron 3000 hombres que hagan unos pozos.

David Boder

ÂCÃmo dijo?

David Lea

Pozos, pozos. [El entrevistado dice algo en otro idioma para hacerse entender].

David Boder

Ah . . . agujas . . .

David Lea

SÃ. Agujas.

David Boder

Agujeros

David Lea

SÃ. Y quemaron en 27 dÃas 600.000 judÃos vivos. Los vimos nosotros, nosotros porque yo laboraba [ininteligible] comando al crematorio, y los vÃa por del frente, los quemaron vivos con leÃa y bencina. Los transportes que venÃan, habÃa veces

David Boder

Los quemaban en agujeros, no en los . . .

David Lea

No los quemaron . . . No los quemaron en los hornos porque no tenÃan tiempo.

David Boder

SÃ. No los pasaron en el chambre . . . cÃmara de gas

David Lea

No. No los pasaron en la cÃmara de gas porque no tenÃan tiempo los alemanes.

David Boder

ÂEntonces quÃ?

David Lea

Los quemaron en los . . . en los pozos que hicimos nosotros, con leÃa y con essence

David Boder

ÂCon quÃ?

David Lea

Con essence, bencina.

David Boder

Bencina.

David Lea

Bencina.

David Boder

Bueno. ÂLes mataron anteriormente o quÃ?

David Lea

Los quemaron vivos. No los mataron, los quemaron vivos.

David Boder

ÂLos quemaron vivos?

David Lea

Vivos. Seiscientos mil hungareses judÃos, al noviembre o al septiembre. No me acuerdo exactamente la data y el dÃa, mas me acuerdo que yo vide esto [ininteligible]

David Boder

ÂCÃmo?

David Lea

[ininteligible] lo vi esto como si la [ininteligible] fuera mÃa.

David Boder

Bueno.

David Lea

Los transportes que venÃan ahà estaban guardados por miles de SS y en todo el convoy habÃa como 20 a 25 o 50 [ininteligible]. Y en el Ãltimo que vi habÃa una Jeep alemana, decÃan que era la Croix Rouge. Y los judÃos, cuando les . . . los metÃan al convoy, les decÃan que los iban a ir al hospital y los judÃos lo creÃan porque veÃan que estaban acompaÃados por el [ininteligible]

David Boder

ÂEl [ininteligible] tenÃa quÃ? ÂUna cruz roja?

David Lea

El [ininteligible] tenÃa la Croix Rouge y tenÃa . . .

David Boder

ÂQuà es "Croix Rouge"?

David Lea

La Cruz Roja

David Boder

ÂLa Cruz Roja?

David Lea

SÃ. TenÃa en la [ininteligible], tenÃa una bandera blanca con la Cruz Roja y decÃa que lo vamos a llevar al hospital a mirar, y lo vamos a llevar [ininteligible]. DespuÃs, allà . . . adentro de allà abrÃa los gases.

David Boder

AjÃ.

David Lea

Mas [ininteligible] sabÃa de eso, el transporte [ininteligible]. Mesmo nosotros mismos [ininteligible]. Mas despuÃs de un mes, dos meses, tres meses que laborà al crematorio, ya supimos que contiene. El gas lo traen con la Cruz Roja. Con el [ininteligible], con la coche de la Cruz Roja.

David Boder

De la Cruz Roja. SÃ.

David Lea

De la Cruz Roja. Esto como estoy explicando . . . yo lo estoy explicando que [ininteligible] si no lo puedo explicar, caros hermanos [ininteligible] y no vas a poder sentir. Es la mÃs desgracia, la mÃs grande que hubo en el crematorio. [ininteligible] nuestros hermanos. Seis millones de judÃos murieron en los campos, cuales maltratados, cuales de hambre, cuales [ininteligible] para pasar a la chambre a gas, fillos y padres. No podÃan mÃs resistir la sufriencia y la hambrera y el piojo, ni el trabajo y se iban voluntarios a la chambre a gas.

David Boder

Bueno, dÃgame . . . eh . . . Âquà es que dijo usted de los . . . ?

David Lea

ÂDe la esterilizaciÃn?

David Boder

Bueno, sÃ.

David Lea

En el campo de Auschwitz, que es la misma direcciÃn que el campo de Birkenau, es unos veinte minutos a pie, esterilizaban a las mujeres de 18 aÃos y hasta 27 aÃos. Las esterilizaban en el Bloco 10 de Auschwitz. En Berkinau, esterilizaban de 22 aÃos fita 30 aÃos a los jÃvenes, en el Bloco . . .

David Boder

ÂA los hombres?

David Lea

Hombres, hombres.

David Boder

ÂCÃmo los esterilizaban?

David Lea

Los llevaban allà y con inyecciones, los esterilizaban. Con inyecciones los esterilizaban. Al Bloco 26. Esto paso al Juin, al 4, 7, 8 de Juin.

David Boder

ÂQuà mes?

David Lea

Juin

David Boder

Mes de junio

David Lea

Junio. SÃ. De 1943. DespuÃs que hacÃan esto, que esterilizaban a mujeres y hombres, se echaban los SS, habÃa unas chambres especialitas para los hombres, los jÃvenes y las mujeres en edad, se echaban ahà juntos . . . si querÃan tener los doctores de las SS . . . si podÃan prevenir a realizar otra raza. Y la mÃs parte, no parirÃan. La mÃs parte, el 95% no parirÃan.

David Boder

Bueno. Los otros . . . que . . . Âse pusieron embarazadas? Âo cÃmo? Eh . . . ÂQuà quiere decir 95% no podÃan . . . eh no . . . ?

David Lea

Los 95% no volvÃan, a poder, a quitar los espermas.

David Boder

Oh. No podÃan volver a tener acto sexual.

David Lea

No podÃan tener el acto sexual.

David Boder

Bueno. Entonces, metieron juntos los hombres con las mujeres.

David Lea

Juntos con las mujeres y no podÃan hacer nada. Mas a notar que les daban buena comida a estos hombres para ver si podÃan hacer cosas, mas normalmente mesmo que les dieran toda la comida del mundo era imposible de arribar porque estaban bien esterilizados.

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

Y cada dÃa, en el campo de Birkenau habÃa una selecciÃn de hombres, de 2000 a 3000 hombres quemaban cada noche, deportados que estaban en el campo [ininteligible] tres meses o cinco meses o un aÃo. Como [ininteligible] judÃos, como judÃos sefaradÃ, como judÃos lituanos, como hungareses y los llevaban al crematorio.

David Boder

DÃgame otra vez el caso cuando pidieron permiso . . . permiso de rezar sobre los muertos.

David Lea

ÂSobre?

David Boder

Que dijo usted que los que quemaron a los muertos pidieron permiso que podÃan rezar, que podÃan . . . eh . . . Dijo usted anteriormente que no les permitÃan de decir sus . . .

David Lea

Ah, sÃ. Me topà en Landberg, al 45 en Baviera. Trabajaba en un comando de quince hombres judÃos y yo, diecisÃis.

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

Un dÃa, de los comandos que trabajaba, murià la hermana en el campo de concentraciÃn nÃmero 7. Naturalmente, nosotros como judÃos, llamemos un joven que tenÃa un amigo, un compaÃero, para [ininteligible] a excavar.

David Boder

[El entrevistador dice la palabra excavar en otro idioma para ver si comprendiÃ].

David Lea

[El entrevistado confirma lo entendido por el entrevistador]. Y entonces, cuando hicimos la excavaciÃn, el SS viene y nos dice "Âquà estÃn haciendo sucios judÃos con un libro?". Le dice el hombre . . .

David Boder

Ah, ÂtenÃan un libro?

David Lea

SÃ. TenÃamos un libro . . . los hungareses y los poloneses judÃos . . . cuando los hungareses al 44 que los deportaron, traÃan libros [ininteligible] y [ininteligible]. Y nosotros guardÃbamos en la tierra, en los pantalones, guardÃbamos los libros de la ley para [ininteligible].

David Boder

Para rezar.

David Lea

Para rezar. Cuando le ve, dice . . . di . . . dice "Âquà es ese sucio libro que tienes judÃo?", pero me dice a mà . . .

David Boder

Hable mÃs despacio.

David Lea

"ÂQuà es ese sucio libro que tienes?". Mi compaÃero se alzà y le dijo que "es mi hermana y querÃa rezar". Y dice "para los sucios no necesita [ininteligible]". Tomà la pala, levantà la pala y le dio en la cabeza y el hombre, al momento muriÃ. Y nosotros lo enterramos con la hermana, con 400 mÃs en una fora. En cada fora que hacÃamos, 300, 350, 400, 450. DespuÃs de dos metros y cuarenta centÃmetros de hondura, echÃbamos la tierra y antes de cubrirlos echÃbamos [ininteligible] o cal para que no diera [ininteligible]

David Boder

ÂPara que no diera quÃ?

David Lea

[ininteligible]

David Boder

Ah.

David Lea

Y entonces, echÃbamos piedra y tierra, y enterrÃbamos la fosa y nos Ãbamos. Al otro dÃa, hacÃamos el mismo trabajo, porque era un campo de cuarentena. Era un campo para matar con las inyecciones a los judÃos. Las inyecciones que echÃbamos, mesmo en el brazo, mesmo en el pie, despuÃs de tres a cuatro minutos, la sangre le subÃa a [ininteligible]

David Boder

ÂA dÃnde?

David Lea

Cuando echaba la inyecciÃn, la sangre le subÃa [ininteligible], ya estaba preto

David Boder

ÂQuiÃnes echaban las inyecciones? ÂUstedes?

David Lea

No. Los SS.

David Boder

Los SS.

David Lea

Y en muchos campos, los SS daban orden a los judÃos que echaran inyecciones, pero los judÃos obligatoriamente lo hacÃan porque si no lo hacÃan, el SS estaba con la metralleta y ya estaba detrÃs de Ãl y "si no haces esto te mato".

David Boder

ÂY?

David Lea

Y claro, el judÃo que era venir, le echaban la inyecciÃn.

David Boder

Pero dÃgame. ÂDe dÃnde la sangre aparecÃa?

David Lea

En la [ininteligible]

David Boder

Aquà en el . . .

David Lea

Y preto y aquÃ.

David Boder

ÂParecÃa salir?

David Lea

No. Se veÃa todo preto, el meollo de la [ininteligible] se hacÃa preta con dos puntos, tres puntos y ya . . . al momento se morÃan. Mas despuÃs de dos a tres puntos, . . .

David Boder

ÂQuiÃnes hacÃan los tres puntos?

David Lea

Tres minutos

David Boder

ÂTres minutos?

David Lea

De dos a tres minutos, despuÃs se hacÃa todo preto. El [ininteligible] preto. Y nosotros los tomÃbamos y los echÃbamos en una [ininteligible] y los enterrÃbamos. DespuÃs, en el campo 1 en Landberg, habÃa el grande SS medical. El nombre era Blanca, tenÃa nombre espaÃol, un alto, moreno. Era como yo de grande.

David Boder

ÂUna mujer?

David Lea

No. Un hombre. Se llamaba Blanca. Un alto moreno, alrededor de 35 a 34 aÃos. Este no podÃa ver a los judÃos, mesmo a los judÃos querÃan trabajar, que estaban en buena salud, unos cuantos, Ãl ordenaba echarles inyecciones. Este fue matado, este mismo, tenÃa una criatura y una mujer. Fue . . . se matÃ

David Boder

ÂCÃmo una criatura?

David Lea

Un pequeÃo.

David Boder

AjÃ. ÂUn niÃo?

David Lea

Un niÃo. Un pequeÃo. TenÃa un pequeÃo y una mujer con Ãl.

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

Cuando los americanos se estaban acercando del Lager 1, Ãl ya vio que se estaban acercando, no tenÃa mÃs para hacer, nada para salvar . . . tomà al pequeÃo, lo mandà a la [ininteligible], tomà una inyecciÃn, matà [ininteligible] a la mujer suya en primero, despuÃs [ininteligible] y Ãl. Y un compaÃero mÃo que se topa actualmente en ParÃs le quità la hora y el anillo de la mano y . . . cuando vio que 2ya estaba muerto, le quità el anillo y la hora de la mano.

David Boder

ÂCÃmo se llama la hora? ÂEl reloj?

David Lea

El reloj. La hora y el anillo. Este camarado se topa actualmente en ParÃs y nos vemos cada dÃa y cada noche.

David Boder

Bueno

David Lea

QuerÃa . . .

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

En el campo 5, en el campo 5, despuÃs de la ocupaciÃn,

David Boder

ÂEl campo 5 de quÃ?

David Lea

El campo 5 de Landsberg, Baviera, despuÃs de la ocupaciÃn, estÃbamos trabajando en unos comandos muy duros de Ãrboles, para cortar Ãrboles, para [ininteligible] nosotros, no podÃamos hacer trabajo porque no tenÃamos comida y dirÃamos "si quieres que trabajemos, danos comida", sino no [ininteligible] necesidad. No podemos trabajar 14 horas en el dÃa, matÃndonos es mejor. Los SS no nos querÃan matar.

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

No nos querÃan matar. Los vamos a hacer penar, los vamos a maltratar de leÃa y despuÃs los vamos a matar cuando nos place y nos gusta a nosotros. Esto acontecià en el Lager de Landsberg. En el Lager 5, en el Lager 6, en el Lager 7, en el Lager 8, en el Lager 9, en el Lager 10 y en el Lager 11. LaborÃbamos a la estaciÃn [ininteligible], ese era el comando

David Boder

Â[Ininteligible]? [El entrevistador confirma el nombre del comando en alemÃn]

David Lea

[Ininteligible. El entrevistado repite el nombre del comando en alemÃn]. Yo laboraba al Lager 7 al Tot comando. El nombre mÃo . . .

David Boder

ÂTot comando?

David Lea

Tot comando, sÃ.

David Boder

That was bad. ÂQuà era esto?

David Lea

Tot comando era un comando especialista para enterrar los muertos, porque en Alemania era prohibido de hacer crematorios y de quemar a los muertos, porque la mÃs parte de la poblaciÃn civil alemana ignoraba que habÃa crematorios y fornos. Muchas veces venÃamos de . . . nos encontrÃbamos con civiles alemanes y les explicÃbamos. Y los civiles decÃan: "esa barbaridad, el pueblo alemÃn no la hace nunca". Pero nosotros, les dijimos: que un dÃa, nosotros ya sabemos que [ininteligible] los alemanes, mas va a saber la historia, o [ininteligible], o mesmo [ininteligible], que existià crematorios en Alemania".

David Lea

El mÃs lungo y cruel crematorio fue en el campo de Buchenwald, el cual tengo un compaÃero que dormimos todos juntos en el [ininteligible] en la Maison de la Rue [ininteligible]. 9 Rue [ininteligible], ParÃs. Somos 4 de ellos, 4 judÃos. Los tres son del campo de Buchenwald, el uno es del campo de Dachau [ininteligible]. Uno se llama [ininteligible], el otro se llama Henry Suchami, actualmente labora en la American [ininteligible]. Henry Suchami es el primer transporte sefardà de Grecia en Auschwitz. 109957, el nÃmero [ininteligible] 109957 primo transporte de Grecia, el cual perdià padre, madre, familia, tres criaturas de cinco aÃos, de siete aÃos y de once aÃos, y mujer. Y la mujer, preÃada.

David Lea

[Nombre ininteligible], un joven de alrededor de 35 aÃos, perdià una criatura y su mujer. Y està escrito a la migraciÃn palestiniana y no hay posibilidad de partir, no hay inda posibilidad de partir. El [ininteligible] palestiniano de ParÃs, que se topa en la calle 83 Avenue [ininteligible], le dice "maÃana, despuÃs de maÃana, de aquà a cinco meses, de aquà a un mes, de aquà a tres meses, te vas a ir". Este joven tiene parientes en Palestina, mas como es flaco, no puede irse ilegal, se espanta, se està quedando conmigo . . .

David Boder

Es que es flaco . . .

David Lea

Del campo [ininteligible]. Como està [ininteligible] el campo, [ininteligible] ni trabajar puede, ni nada. Naturalmente, es que espera de mÃ, un compaÃero que estuvimos al campo tres aÃos, un bocado de pan o una calza que le va a dar una [ininteligible] para Ãl se meter. Si no le da una calza, un calzado, no tiene para meter, que . . . y no puede trabajar. Tiene flaco, tiene [ininteligible] los pulmones. No es sÃlo este caso de los dÃportÃs, hay muchos dÃportÃs aquà en Francia, el cual . . .

David Boder

Por supuesto.

David Lea

Hay muchos dÃportÃs aquà en Francia, que estamos sufriendo ainda. Mesmo que nos queremos ir en Palestina y estamos viendo la barbarie del inglÃs, que si nosotros . . . la juventud que salimos de los campos, si nos vamos en Palestina, nunca empezarÃamos a trabajar. Yo, lebanÃs que le estoy hablando, no pensarÃa nunca a trabajar en Palestina, pensarÃa en tomar el fusil o la metralleta y demandar la libertad. Si no la toma la libertad con la guerra . . . si no tengo la libertad con la polÃtica, la va a tomar con la guerra. Nunca pensarÃa a trabajar. Si me muero en Palestina, algÃn dÃa mis hijos o mis hermanos van a venir. Porque ya vi el campo cuando estuve tres aÃos, ya vi la exterminaciÃn de 6000 judÃos y no me gustarÃa nunca esta polÃtica inglesa. Nosotros, los rescatÃs de los campos, queremos ir presto a batirnos contra esos . . . sucia raz . . . sucia polÃtica inglesa y no tenemos la posibilidad por esto de donde estamos. Que nos topamos en Fra . . . actualmente en Francia muchos jÃvenes judÃos y que estÃn migrando ilegal.

David Boder

Emigrando a Francia

David Lea

No. Està emigrando a la Palestina.

David Boder

SÃ.

David Lea

Y un dÃa la Palestina . . . un dÃa, la Palestina la tomaremos y mesmo si se morirÃan 50.000 judÃos en Palestina en combate o 100.000 judÃos. No es lo importante.

David Boder

[In English] This ends Spool 42 of Mr. David Lea.

var english_translation = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] Paris, eh, August 12, 1946 at the headquarters of the American Joint Distribution Committee. The interviewee is David Lea with tattoo number 120930 of Auschwitz.

David Boder

[In German] Eh . . . Well, Mr. Lea, will you tell me, where you were born?

David Lea

In Saloniki.

David Boder

You were born in . . . ?

David Lea

In Saloniki.

David Boder

In Saloniki.

David Lea

Greece. [Interrupting]

David Boder

In Greece. And, eh, what nationality do you have? I mean, eh, of which country do you hold nationality? Eh, I mean, eh, are you Greek or Spanish, or what are you?

David Lea

Greek.

David Boder

You are Greek, all right. And you were born in Saloniki?

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

Well, tell me, what has happened there when the war broke out?

David Lea

I have done soldier in military, after, war prison in Krebv [unclear?]. After . . .

David Boder

You were a soldier for whom? For the Greek? [Interrupting]

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

For the Greek?

David Lea

To Albanien [uses the German pronunciation]

David Boder

To Albania? [uses the English pronunciation]

David Lea

Albania [now also using the English pronunciation]

David Boder

And with whom were you fi- . . . , against whom did you fight?

David Lea

Against Italia.

David Boder

You were fighting against . . . . ?

David Lea

I was fighting [simultaneously with Interviewer] . . . war against Italia.

David Boder

Against Italia.

David Lea

Yes.

David Boder

Well and then . . .

David Lea

Well [Interrupting] and after Germans come on, eh, April 6, Mai 6, April, come to Crete. After, 42 days in prison with the Germans to Crete.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Then after, three months war prison.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Come home. After six months . . .

David Boder

Where did you get home to? [Interrupting]

David Lea

In Saloniki . . . [Noise in background] to Saloniki.

David Boder

To your house in Saloniki?

David Lea

Yes, that's right, in Saloniki. Then deport Auschwitz.

David Boder

How long did you live in Saloniki?

David Lea

Lived in Saloniki?

David Boder

After you came home. Yes, before you were deported.

David Lea

Five months.

David Boder

You lived in Saloniki for five months.

David Lea

Five months. That's right.

David Boder

Who was in Saloniki, the Italians or the Germans?

David Lea

The Germans, also the Italians.

David Boder

The Italians and also the Germans?

David Lea

The German, but together with the Italian.

David Boder

Well then, why did they deport you?

David Lea

Because I Jewish.

David Boder

Aha, how did they make known, that the Jewish should come, or what?

David Lea

The Germans have made Ghetto.

David Boder

Oh.

David Lea

Have said in Jewish, ever Jewish of Greece will travel to Polonia, to Cracow. Work. Will have work good, food good. And are you Greek, cannot imagine, when, I, eh, speak German is correct. Will travel together with family.

David Boder

You traveled with your family?

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

They took the whole family?

David Lea

Took whole family. [Simultaneously] My . . .

David Boder

Where from? [Interrupting]

David Lea

From Saloniki. My family is 37 persons. Only I remained, 36 person in Crematorium of Auschwitz. Burned in nine, eh, two, eh, little people.

David Boder

Ok, wait. You are telling me, that there were 37 persons in your family. Who were they?

David Lea

Mother . . .

David Boder

You father. [simultaneously]

David Lea

Father, mother, brother . . . [constant noise in the background]

David Boder

How many brothers? [Interrupting]

David Lea

Three brothers with two brother.

David Boder

Three brothers with . . . ?

David Lea

with two brother . . . Three brothers.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Two FrÃulein as well.

David Boder

What?

David Lea

Two FrÃulein

David Boder

Two, eh, two girls.

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

My mother, my father, my mother of my father, my mother of my mum and cousins.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

All together.

David Boder

Did you all get arrested together? [Interrupting]

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Well, all together. April 2. In nine May . . . .

David Boder

Wait, they arrested you on April 2, and then, how did they send you away? [Interrupting]

David Lea

eh, sent away, eh . . . in transport.

David Boder

Yes, what kind of, eh, what kind of transport was it?

David Lea

In transport no water, no food was made there, none has made the German for us.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Nine days in transport, barred the door, half of transport when coming to Auschwitz, finished, dead.

David Boder

Oh, in, in . . . [Interrupting]

David Lea

. . . no bread, no bread, in the wagons . . . [Continues talking]

David Boder

Yes, and they died in . . . .

David Lea

. . . died in wagon, half of transport.

David Boder

Yes. Didn't they open up the . . . every day.

David Lea

the wagon?

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Every day. Only they said, the SS a little bit of water, eh, makes finished. The SS . . . . You cannot wash yourself, eh, finished all the Jewish in wagon.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Coming . . . [Noise in background] in May 43 to Auschwitz. The same day two separated according to . . . [unintelligible], 36 persons. Only . . .

David Boder

What do you mean you were separated? [Interrupting]

David Lea

In Crematorium.

David Boder

Yes, why had they not taken you?

David Lea

Whyâwhy, I not number of 25 years.

David Boder

Oh, were all the others older than 25 years?

David Lea

That's right, 25 years old to 30 years.

David Boder

Aha. So 25 to 30 in age was ok.

David Lea

25 years [simultaneously] . . . Yes in Auschwitz.

David Boder

Yes, and what about the others?

David Lea

The other, they burn.

David Boder

Did you see? Did you see, how they . . .

David Lea

I came together, no introduction made the German, only has made selection. The young, until 7 and 13, until 20 years, until 30 years [is correcting himself] and the others, say Germans, go to car, the mother and the father, come to "Revier."

David Boder

Oh. They were taken away in cars?

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Away in cars. German said, who sick, the mother, the father, not good eater, go to "Revier." After two days, the SS told us, where is my family [unintelligible], say, three, four days more and they are finished. After a month, can you imagine, my family, all family, Jewish, to Crematorium. I, eh, was 44 Novem . . . .

David Boder

Yes, eh. Please take your hand down.

David Lea

Yes, 44 Novembre, I was in Auschwitz, in the camp of Auschwitz. Have burned, six, eh, a moment. . . .

David Boder

[In English] He's writing down the number. All right. [Pause]

David Boder

[In German] Six hundred thousand.

David Lea

In Novembre.

David Boder

In one month?

David Lea

Wait, in Novembre.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

The German have burned, made nonsense. The commando, special commando, working special commando crematorium. In seven . . . .

David Boder

Did you work in the crematorium? [Interrupting]

David Lea

Yes in c. In 27 days, they have burnt six, sixty, hundred thousand Jewish Hungarian.

David Boder

60.000 Hungarian Jews.

David Lea

Yes . . .

David Boder

Did you work in the crematorium? [Interrupting]

David Lea

That's right. [simultaneously] That's right, I work crematorium. I self have burnt. Six and thousand, eh, sixty, eh . . .

David Boder

Six hundred thousand.

David Lea

Six hundred thousand Jewish have burnt until, two, two, eh until twenty-seven days. After days, every day burnt the crematorium of, eh, Auschwitz.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

After, the Russians come. April 18. June 18 from Radom to the camp of Auschwitz, the Russian come June 28. After, I travel to Buchenwald. Special . . . [Noises in the background]

David Boder

When were you in Buchenwald?

David Lea

In Buchenwald I have done three months, two were in Dachau, one week in FÃrth, after, April 29, American troop come to Dachau on order.

David Boder

Aha, yes. And liberated you.

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

Well, you are saying, that you worked in the crematorium of Auschwitz?

David Lea

Yes, Yes, that's right

David Boder

Eh . . .

David Lea

Special commando.

David Boder

In the special commando. Well, tell me, how . . . what happened in the crematorium? What was the crematorium? [Pause] Oh. [Pause]

David Boder

[In English] He's lighting a cigarette. He wanted to roll one, but I offered him an American cigarette and light my own.

David Boder

[In German] Well, tell me, you worked in the crematorium. Would you tell me, how did you work in the crematorium and what did the crematorium look like?

David Lea

In, well, how one has worked . . . ? [hesitates]

David Boder

Yes, well, so how did you, what did the crematorium look like?

David Lea

That's right, Yes. Come transport from every . . . . Come transport from all of Europe Jewish . . .

David Boder

Come a little closer. [Interrupting]

David Lea

Come transport from all of Europe, Jewish. Boy of two months, of five years, of seven years, of ten years, of eighteen years. Person of 80 years, of 90 years stays there. Comes to, eh crematorium. Is a big hall. Write French, eh, German. My, ehâsay, an "Affiche" in Crematorium say, all undress. Make bath. People make bath. I, the, eh, I healthy, when I . . . when I bath, I healthy. Things, I cannot understand, what spoken correct, all undress, together, men with the FrÃulein together, the women of 80 years and the girls of 20 years, all together. Eh, when all together, they get soap and theâwhat is that . . . .

David Boder

Towel.

David Lea

Towel, soap. An SS from the other room look, all already, all already . . . done, all already finished. All is out. Has opened up the Luminette and the gas. In two minutes, one to two minutes, finished two- three thousand men.

David Boder

Did they all really die?

David Lea

Really died. After, the little boys, two, eh four years, three years. Only they get . . . eh . . . eh here . . . [seems to be pointing to his nose] blood, eh, blood, bleeding.

David Boder

A bleeding nose.

David Lea

Nose, . . . a bleeding nose from the poison. Only the little one cried, Mummy, Mummy, Mummy. But the mother after, after one, eh, two minutes the mother was finished, the entire family. Then come nonsense. I Ventilateur, Ventilateur.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Has also done nonsense, the same, the special commando, the Ventilateur.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

The gas off . . . out

David Boder

Out, yes.

David Lea

(unclear)

David Boder

Yes, Yes.

David Lea

Get noisy

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Throw the dead in the wagonnet . . .

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

. . . and after into the crematorium.

David Boder

Well, yes. What was the crematorium? An oven? [Pause] What was it? An oven, eh, a . . . ?

David Lea

Co-, Co-, Coal.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Coal, Coal . . .

David Boder

Eh, yes. Was it an oven or . . . ?

David Lea

No. Eh, crematorium, crematorium . . . [Interrupting] and the . . .

David Boder

Yes, yes. How many people could you burn in there at one time? [Interrupting]

David Lea

When I, eh, with transport come every day ten transports of 20 to 40 thousand people. Eight people in one crematorium, twenty minutes burn. After the days, every day made burn in crematorium. Every day, after Sabbath, every day burning in crematorium. In crematorium there was work, about five, eh, 1500 men. 500 men every hour, every eight hours work. After change, other 500 men work. And those who work special commando eat good.

David Boder

They gave you good food?

David Lea

Yes, that's right. After, the 1500 men only work for three months. Because after, the SS has finished them, with, eh, the, 1500 men.

David Boder

How did they finish them?

David Lea

WhyâNot want them to speak about what they are doing in crematorium.

David Boder

But how did they finish them. Also in the crematorium?

David Lea

Also in crematorium. And the SS finished in crematorium the same, the, the, eh special commando. After three months with it, then crematorium.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Burned the same. I did not burn, then come the Russian.

David Boder

Aha.

David Lea

When my commando, the special commando, 1.500 men did not burn, then come the Russian. And the Germans, no time, no time. When I have time, hundreds have burned.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

In, eh, 43 . . . the crematorium four, four . . . [noise in the background] number crematorium four, the Greek from Saloniki, Athens, has made a bomb. Bomb destroys.

David Boder

Who has done that?

David Lea

The Greek from Athens. In, eh, 34.

David Boder

In eh, eh 44.

David Lea

44.

David Boder

Were these Jewish Greeks?

David Lea

Jewish Greeks together with the Polacks.

David Boder

Together with the Polacks they did such a thing.

David Lea

Yes. Had . . .

David Boder

Torn.

David Lea

Torn, yes, had munitions in crematorium four. Greek from Athens and Polack, Jewish, from the Ghetto of Warsaw.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Have destroyed crematorium four.

David Boder

Where, in, eh Auschwitz?

David Lea

No, in Birkenau.

David Boder

In Birkenau. Exactly, Auschwitz and Birkenau. Eh, how did they destroy the crematorium?

David Lea

The Jewishâeh, Greek and Jewish Polack.

David Boder

Aha, and what did they do to them? [Pause] Eh, did they survive, the people?

David Lea

All destroyed in Crematorium.

David Boder

The people that were in it?

David Lea

. . . they too. The people that were in it. [Interrupting] When the, the, eh, person went out [unintelligible] it was with machine gun. The SS said, that when I make nonsense in the crematorium, we is finished. Everything destroyed, inside, with the people, the Jewish Polack and the Jewish from Greece. After two minutes . . . finished.

David Boder

Did you see that for yourself?

David Lea

I have seen it not, when I am in Revier [noise in the background]

David Boder

What?

David Lea

I am sick.

David Boder

Oh, you were sick and you were in the Revier.

David Lea

[unintelligible, as simultaneously with Interviewer] . . . was in Revier, did not see, but bum.

David Boder

You have heard it, when it happened.

David Lea

Everything, yes. [Interrupting]

David Boder

And after they had destroyed the crematoria, were there still people being burnt in there?

David Lea

Not.

David Boder

No, they did not . . .

David Lea

No. [simultaneously]

David Boder

None.

David Lea

Eh, for two days they evacuated the camp of Birkenau. SS has destroyed all crematoria.

David Boder

They destroyed it all themselves.

David Lea

For two days evacuated the camp of Birkenau. April 18, they evacuated with us camp. 16 no 18, eh 18 . . .

David Boder

No, no, no, take the hand down. [Interrupting] Yes.

David Lea

June 18, in April, June 18, 45 they evacuated the camp of Auschwitz. June 16, 45 the German destroyed all the crematoria. Six crematoria did destroy the German.

David Boder

They themselves? And how many did the Greek destroy?

David Lea

The Greek destroyed and also the Polack destroyed.

David Boder

Yes, but how many of the crematoria did the Greek . . .

David Lea

One crematorium. [Interrupting] One crematorium. One crematorium number four. The same, the Jewish Polack has destroyed crematorium four.

David Boder

Aha, and the rest was destroyed by the SS.

David Lea

destroyed by SS.

David Boder

Now, but, where did you go to after, eh, who has liberated you, the Russians or the Americans?

David Lea

American. April 29, 45.

David Boder

From which camp?

David Lea

From Dachau.

David Boder

From Dachau. Eh, was there a crematorium in Dachau as well?

David Lea

In Dachau crematorium, 44 they made only one crematorium. Whyâhas done. In Dachau, it is forbidden for the Jewish.

David Boder

What?

David Lea

In Dachau it is forbidden . . .

David Boder

In Dachau it was forbidden for Jewish rank. There were no Jews in Dachau.

David Lea

Yes. No Jews, non crematorium.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

After, five, eh, five, eh 45 I come, have made another crematorium. For all, for the Jewish and for the Arian. After in April, in April 29 . . . .

David Boder

Yes. Tell me, have you seen any gypsies in one of the camps?

David Lea

Yes indeed.

David Boder

Tell me about the gypsies.

David Lea

In camp, in camp of Birkenau.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Have seen gypsiesâseven, eight thousand gypsies, not Jewish. All together with the children, with everything. Eat good, three, five, seven Months. After, one night, one hour, one before dawn the Germans have made call for the whole camp of gypsies.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Have called the entire camp of gypsies, after two hours, eight, nine people, eight, nine thousand people together with the children small finished, all gypsies. And after, one has not seen gypsies anymore in camp of Birkenau.

David Boder

So they killed all the gypsies?

David Lea

All dead.

David Boder

Were they also sent through the gas chambers?

David Lea

All, all through the gas.

David Boder

Mh. Why did they do that?

David Lea

I don't know why.

David Boder

You don't know why.

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

Eh. And who lived in the block the gypsies had lived in afterwards?

David Lea

Yes. In block there lived the gypsies. Or block for gypsies, only gypsies. Why isâgypsies stay, why not Arian, no SS let them live together.

David Boder

But when all the gypsies were, eh, when all the gypsies had been killed. Who lived on that block afterwards?

David Lea

The block is out.

David Boder

The block is . . . ?

David Lea

Barred. [Interrupting]

David Boder

The block was barred.

David Lea

Barred.

David Boder

Yes . . . And what are you doing now, Mr. Lea?

David Lea

I work in the committee of . . . [unintelligible, noises in the background]

David Boder

You are working in the committee . . . [unintelligible]

David Lea

I have no family.

David Boder

What?

David Lea

No family.

David Boder

You have no family.

David Lea

36 persons - finished.

David Boder

Aha, and eh, what do you intend to do afterwards? How did you get to France?

David Lea

Why in Greece? I have . . .

David Boder

How did you get here? [Interrupting] FromâHow old are you? How old are you?

David Lea

I am, how old I am? . . . . 28.

David Boder

You are 28 years old. All right. And now you are with the Joint?

David Lea

That's right.

David Boder

Do you have relatives in America?

David Lea

Not.

David Boder

None. Do you have relatives in Palestine?

David Boder

[In English] This concludes eh, eh Spool 41, of which half is Ms. Precker and the other one is Mr. Lea. After the machine stopped, he suggested that he has something more to tell.

David Boder

This is Spool number 42. Mr. David Lea continued.

David Boder

[In German] Mr. Lea, you saidâwhat did you want to tell me about Auschwitz?

David Lea

About Warsaw.

David Boder

Oh. You said you were in Warsaw. Why did you come to Warsaw?

David Lea

I went to Warsaw from Birkenau, 6 Septembre. Yom Kippur.

David Boder

Yes. Why, were you liberated from Birkenau?

David Lea

From Birkenau transport for the Jewish to work in Warsaw.

David Boder

Oh, theâwho took you there?

David Lea

The SS.

David Boder

The SS took you from Birkenau to Auschwitz, eh, to Warsaw. Now tell me, what happened there. [Lea continuously interrupts in the affirmative.]

David Lea

Work in ghetto in the house of the Jewish. All of the ghetto is, the ghetto from Warsaw [noise in the background] two hundred meters, so long from the graveyard of Warsaw is Jewish. I not understand the city, whyâI not speak Polack.

David Boder

Polish,yes.

David Lea

The, the people deport Polack. When I now to, eh, in America, as city, two, two hundred, eh, two hundred meter is long the graveyard of the Jewish up to my camp.

David Boder

Aha

David Lea

Work . . .

David Boder

Why did they send you from Auschwitz to Warsaw? [Interrupting]

David Lea

Why I sent? As young, healthy persons. Work.

David Boder

Whoâwhere did you have to work?

David Lea

Work in the town, with the pickaxe, with the pickaxe, with the shovel. No food, only 150 gram bread every day, noon one liter of water. This way work, eh, 40 hours.

David Boder

Mh. So, what has happened?

David Lea

I, after, SS has spoken.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Every Jewish from the work, in the camp of the Jewish is finished. The camps is as long as, as wide as 50 meter from Pawiak to Warsaw.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Work in the Bunki, [unintelligible], the same German. Boy has had finished whole family, Jewish, with the children little. The fight with the Germans of 39. Afterwards, SS with, to, perhaps come over to us, in the Bunke. I too much Jewish in the Bund. Because Jewish, when they search, when they search Jewish in the Bund. I too much Jewish in the Bunki, not finished, so finished, eh, so not finished. I took machine gun, eh, stole it.

David Boder

What are the Bunki? What is the "Bund"?

David Lea

The Bunki is Jewish organization, make sabotage, who make sabotage inside the guetto. And look in the street, finish the German. At work, work eight, nine months in, eh, Warsaw.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

After, camp of Warsaw evacuated.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

In the camp of Warsaw big transport came, Jom Kippur, came to, eh Warsaw, only Greek Jewish barrack. WhyâNonsense, this barrack Greek, does not understand Polack, understands England. The German has said, those who do not understand Polack come to Warsaw. Has said, good [unintelligible], good [unintelligible]. Nonsense, the Jewish barrack go to Warsaw. Whyâthe Germans afraid. When I work in Warsaw and I understand Polack, must go. But only Jewish barrack not understand Polack. The Germans had no fear with us. After Jewish barrack finished, come . . . Polack Jewish. Polack Jewish, Hungarian Jewish . . . Lithuanian Jewish . . . from Cracow Jewish, from Ukraine Jewish. 40 hours work at day, German camp, after at night call for three hours. Shoes, no shoes, no stockings, shoes of wood . . . no gloves, Work, one time shoe, one time jacket . . . , one jacket. When come to, to place of work, the Capo, German, say, take off the jacket. ("Nonsense" or "Us"; German: "Unsinn" or "uns") take off the jacket, have done so, as he had said. Whyâbeat to death. Outside cold every day, with the shovel and the pickaxe, one hour work, then finished.

David Boder

What do you mean by finished?

David Lea

From, eh, . . . from cold, no food, no . . . no food, no vitamins, no sleep, to many lice. The . . .

David Boder

Lice? [Interrupting]

David Lea

Lice, too many. Typhoid, every day, 80, 90, 100 people finished. In Revier, no food in Revier. Now there comes SS, the [unintelligible] SS, one German say all Jewish finished. With the, what is . . . makes finished.

David Boder

With what? With injection?

David Lea

Yes, so [Seems to show it to him].

David Boder

With injection.

David Lea

Yes, injection in Revier. In the camp of Warsaw, the Revier is the block number 7.

David Boder

[In English] He demonstrates by hand, he didn't know the word. There were people that were killed by injection. No?

David Lea

In the camp of Warsaw, the Revier is block 7 or block 8. Boss of Revier is a German. Bad, all the Jewish finished. [unintelligible].. in the Crematorium, all Jewish, finished anyways. There is no Jewish coming home. After, gone to camp Landsberg. This is in Bavaria. I work in Landsberg. The camp official understand me from Birkenau. The, eh, have worked in special commando. One day he said, come, work in graveyard commando.

David Boder

In which commando?

David Lea

In graveyard commando to Landsberg, Bavaria. I have the same, my commando, still 15 people, me, 16 people all together. 12.000 . . . 5 . . . 1537 Jewish in one month work. This camp . . .

David Boder

How did you know the number? How did you count? [Interrupting]

David Lea

This are doing the [unintelligible]. I 200 dead, 180 dead, the command of the camp made report. Now I fetch 50 Polack dead, 20 Greek Jewish dead, 10 Hungarian, 10 Slowak, make report. In one month work, 12437 finished. This graveyard, no measurement, no person can understand, only the 16 people that worked.

David Boder

How did you make the graves? Was there a separate grave for everyone? [Interrupting]

David Lea

400 people one hole. 300 people one hole. After, digging two meters and 40 centimeters.

David Boder

What?

David Lea

Two meters, 40 centimeters thick.

David Boder

Deep.

David Lea

Deep. There come wagons, every wagon 40 dead. Come together the wagons to the dead. The SS, nonsense. One Jewish wanted do a little (unclear). The SS has not allowed. Have seen comrade, work in the, with the [unintelligible], has said, is my brother, my cousin. Has read a little. No little reading.

David Boder

No little what?

David Lea

Reading.

David Boder

Ah . . .

David Lea

Nothing. Dead, dead, the human, the brother . . .

David Boder

Ah pray.

David Lea

Reading. Bracha

David Boder

Aha, to make Broche. No? Did he . . . [is interrupted]

David Lea

SS has stroken him dead. SS has, one day the comrade got, the comrade got for praying. Against the SS, saying, take my portion, say the SS.

David Boder

Now wait, you are saying . . . [Interrupting, Lea continues however]

David Lea

. . . my comrade said, this, the dead, is my brother. Wanted to do a little reading. The SS tock the pickleaxe and the shovel and hit him on the head, finished together with the brother.

David Boder

Aha, eh, a person has asked permission to pray over his brother who he had to bury. But he tells the SS killed him with the shovel and buried them both. All right.

David Lea

After, one day. 400 dead, eh, 400. In every hole 400 dead, 300, 350. After closing the dead with the [unintelligible]. The camp there has said, do, one can say, the hole, so that no one understand why these people dead. The graveyard has done and I in Bayern, in the middle.

David Boder

Where is that ? In Warsaw?

David Lea

Not in Warsaw. In Landsberg, Bayern.

David Boder

In, in . . . ?

David Lea

In Landsberg, Bayern.

David Boder

Bavaria?

David Lea

Bavaria.

David Boder

Yes

David Lea

Bavaria.

David Boder

What kind of camp was Landsberg?

David Lea

In Landsberg, there is, the entire of Landsberg is final camp.

David Boder

Aha.

David Lea

Camp one, camp two, camp three, camp four, camp five, camp six, camp seven, camp eight, camp nine, camp ten, camp eleven. In camp number four, camp seven, camp seven, there is only quarantine.

David Boder

Only quarantine?

David Lea

Quarantine finishes the Jewish with injection. In camp one, there is main, in camp one, it is a camp, work camp. The name is Tannberg. The bad people . . .

David Boder

What is it called? [Interrupting]

David Lea

Tannberg. German. Tannberg, Tannberg. Those SS people are now in NÃrnberg. A comrade of mine, Russian Jewish. His name is Kosakov. Went to trial in . . .

David Boder

NÃrnberg.

David Lea

NÃrnberg. Watch this. During the trial, he spoke with commander of tribunal, American. These, the bad people and the Jewish has made 29, and the same. After I don't know, what I would have done with this SS. In camp four, it is the same as camp five, camp seven. Quarantine. April 27, 44, 45. FDG, head SS.of Revier.

David Boder

What is the FDG?

David Lea

FDG is the head of Revier SS. Among the DÃportÃ, head of Revier SS said, FDG, burn. The people, there are too many, there are too many, has burnt. Healthy people, more than 3.000 people with the gas. After two hours, the Americans come. The Americans have said, eh, have said to every German from Bavaria, come and see, what the Germans have done. The people, healthy, have burnt, with the gas, with the flames.

David Boder

Yes, Yes.

David Lea

One comrade . . .

David Boder

How did they burn them? With . . . [Interrupting]

David Lea

With the, eh, the flame.

David Boder

With flame throwers?

David Lea

That's right, that's right, that's right.

David Boder

He had healthy people burnt with flame, eh, throwers.

David Lea

Why done. The FDG has seen that the Americans are, are twenty kilometers to Bavaria. Thus he done finishing the Jewish. Not Jewish, can't imagine, why, is too much sickness, no food. Until March, until April 45, one got only 80 grams of bread every day. No, no margarine, no food. Noon time, only one liter of water. So every day, 200, 300 Jewish finished. In two months, the entire camp was finished. After, two months carry other Jewish from camp five, from camp three, from camp two, from camp nine, from camp eleven, eleven. It is the same, have seen it, have watched. In camp three. April 3, 44. Jewish Lithuanian, finishes Jewish, sick, the dead. Jewish. Eats them.

David Boder

Mh?

David Lea

The Jewish, the jewish . . . .

David Boder

Have eaten . . .

David Lea

Have eaten the dead Jewish. Have . . .

David Boder

Yes, in which, in which . . . [Interrupting]

David Lea

Yes, have eaten [simultaneously] In camp three. In Bayern. Bayern.

David Boder

Eh, where was that? In Dachau, in . . .

David Lea

Not. In Landsberg, Bayern. Camp three.

David Boder

Aha. In Landsberg. Did the Jew- , eh, did people eat other people?

David Lea

Yes. I self have seen it.

David Boder

Yes, you yourself have seen it.

David Lea

I myself. In camp three.

David Boder

Yes, well. Didn't they give you anything to eat then?

David Lea

Ate nothing at all. After, the SS has barred the camp, has said, no dinner.

David Boder

All right. Tell me . . . . Could you say the same in Greek? In Greek? Do you speak Greek?

David Lea

Yes, a little.

David Boder

Then, tell me the same in Greek.

David Lea

Don't you speak Spanish. Why not Spanish?

David Boder

[In Spanish] Do you speak Spanish?

David Lea

Of course, I speak Spanish.

David Boder

Oh. And why didnât you tell me so? Well . . . tell me again about the case when . . . the cannibalism case.

David Lea

In Spanish?

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Ladies and gentlemen. I came across two soldiers, three soldiers, in Landsberg camp âcamp 3- in Bavaria. After 15 to 20 days without any food to eat we, deportees, there were many dead people, we took one afternoon, at 10 and one quarter of an hour in the afternoon, we took the knives and cut our Jewish fellows who were already dead. And we ate the flesh of them.

David Boder

And you did, too?

David Lea

âcourse. I remember, it was February 3rd, 1945. In the whole camp, we were there, Spanish Jews from [unintelligible] and the others were Jews from Warsaw, from Lithuania, from [unintelligible], from Belgium, from [unintelligible], from Italy, and from other cities which were occupied by the Armed Forces enemies of Europe.

David Boder

And . . . ?

David Lea

We suffered so long, so much time. Three years in camp. The food was so scarce, not enough, and we worked 14 hours a day.

David Boder

Speak slowly, please. What work did you use to do there?

David Lea

We worked building forts.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

With a shovel and a [calm]. After working [unintelligible] as we could, they battered us, they battered us with the sticks and beat us to death.

David Lea

On a transportation that came from Warsaw, in 1944, when the Russians were approaching Warsaw. The biggest transportation, and the biggest disaster in Jewish history was in Warsaw where they deported us on train for 18 days. On animal trains, locked day and night, guarded by four barbarians of the SS, with their machine guns, no water, no food, and under the sun . . . And more than 8,000 people died. We were 8,726 people and 725 people returned to the Dachau camp. The 8,000 people were killed by starvation, or by the SS, or by the drought.

David Boder

Right, and from where did that transportation come?

David Lea

The transportation came from Warsaw . . .

David Boder

From Warsaw to . . .

David Lea

To Dachau. The Russians were coming from Warsaw and the Germans wanted us . . . somehow needed us to work and take the interior of Germany. They didn't want to kill us and then they locked us in some train cars, 120 people in an animal car.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

Locked night and day, without a . . .

David Boder

Why do you call it animal car? Wasn't it a freight car?

David Lea

No. They didn't have . . . And they didn't have, it was . . . it . . . it was forbidden . . . it was forbidden for Jews.

David Boder

I see . . .

David Lea

We were there, battered by these beasts, and we raised our hands to God [unintelligible] 'cause we could suffer no more. And we wanted to pee, all side by side. The SS would ask "Who wants to pee?" but we saw that our comrades went to pee, to do whatever . . .

David Boder

I see . . . In the railway car.

David Lea

In the railway car. And then the SS came and killed them with the machine gun, and we were [ininteligible] of peeing in our pants . . . hem . . . all. And sometimes we wanted to defecate, we would do it on our hands and throw it away through a hole we had made to the railway car.

David Boder

And that was in the month of . . .

David Lea

June and July, '44.

David Boder

June and July . . .

David Lea

Yes. June and July, because I cannot remember exactly.

David Boder

Yes. It is not important.

David Lea

[unintelligible] because our morale was broken, we had lost our family, our finances, and we didn't have any strength. All the Jews who returned from the German concentration camps, we may look good physically, look well, but we are not well inside. We are all [unintelligible].

David Boder

Why?

David Lea

Because work was much, food was scarce, we were beaten to death, and it was very cold. We are all [unintelligible] our lungs, some with rheumatism, some with asthma, some with the lungs . . . and . . . most of all have . . . lose . . . they lose their morale. I am talking, a Greek Jew, [unintelligible] Sephardic. If I remembered more . . . we could [unintelligible] talk more frequently, I am not recalling much.

David Lea

The tragedy that occurred in '44, in Birkenau camp, more or less, I could not speak because my German isn't good . . . I don't speak well, but now, I will speak in Spanish. In 1944, by the end of 1944, in November, in Birkenau camp . . . in September, October, or November, 600,000 Jewish Hungarians came in Birkenau. When the crematories were not enough to burn the Jews, the SS ordered 3,000 men to dig holes.

David Boder

To make what?

David Lea

Holes, pits. [The interviewer says something in another language to make himself clear].

David Boder

Ah . . . whole . . .

David Lea

Yes. Pits.

David Boder

Pits.

David Lea

Yes. And, in 27 days, they burned 600,000 Jews alive. We saw them because I worked [unintelligible] commando to the crematory, and I saw them by the front side, they burnt them alive, with wood and benzene. The transportations coming, sometimes . . .

David Boder

They burned them in pits, not in the . . .

David Lea

They did not burn them . . . they did not burn them in furnaces because they didn't have time.

David Boder

Yes. They did not send them to the chambre . . . gas chamber.

David Lea

No. They didn't put them in the gas chamber because the Germans didn't have time.

David Boder

And then . . . ?

David Lea

They burned them in the pits we had made, with wood and with essence.

David Boder

With what?

David Lea

With essence, benzene.

David Boder

Benzene.

David Lea

Benzene.

David Boder

Right. did they kill them before, or what?

David Lea

They burned them alive. They didn't kill them, they burned them alive.

David Boder

They burned them alive?

David Lea

Alive. Six hundred thousand Jewish Hungarians, in November or in September. I don't remember exactly the date and the day, but I remember that I witnessed this, as [unintelligible].

David Boder

Pardon me.

David Lea

[unintelligible] I saw this as if the [unintelligible] were mine.

David Boder

Right.

David Lea

The transportations coming there were guarded by thousands of SS and, in the whole convoy, there were about 20 to 25 or 50 [unintelligible]. And in the last one I saw, there was a German Jeep -they said it was from the Croix Rouge. And the Jews, when they were put in the convoy, they said they would take them to hospital, and the Jews believed it because they saw they were accompanied by the [unintelligible] of the Croix Rouge.

David Boder

What did the [unintelligible] have? A red cross?

David Lea

The [unintelligible] had the Croix Rouge and it had . . .

David Boder

What is Croix Rouge?

David Lea

The Red Cross.

David Boder

The Red Cross?

David Lea

Yes. It had in the [unintelligible], it had a white flag with the Red Cross, and he said we are taking you to the hospital to examine you, and we are taking [unintelligible]. And then, inside, he opened the gases.

David Boder

I see . . .

David Lea

But [unintelligible] knew that, the transportation [unintelligible]. Even us . . . we ourselves when we first arrived at the camp. But after one month, two months, three months that I worked in the crematory, we knew what it contained. The gas was brought with the Red Cross. With the [unintelligible], with the Red Cross car.

David Boder

From the Red Cross. Yes.

David Lea

From the Red Cross. As I am explaining . . . I am explaining that [unintelligible] caros brothers [unintelligible] you will not to be able to feel. This is the greatest tragedy, the greatest ever in the crematory. [unintelligible] our brothers and sisters. Six million Jews died in the camps, some battered, some of starvation, some [unintelligible] to be put in the gas chamber, children and parents. They could no longer stand the suffering and the starvation, and lice, and the forced labor any more, and they went voluntarily to the gas chamber.

David Boder

So, tell me . . . er . . . what is it that you said about the . . . ?

David Lea

About the sterilization?

David Boder

Well . . . yes.

David Lea

In the Auschwitz camp, which is in the same direction as the Birkenau camp -about twenty minutes on foot- they sterilized eighteen to twenty-seven-year-old women. They were sterilized in Block 10 in Auschwitz. In Birkenau, they sterilized twenty-two to thirty-year-old youngsters, in Block . . .

David Boder

Men?

David Lea

Men, yes, men.

David Boder

How were they sterilized?

David Lea

They took them there and sterilized them using injections. They sterilized them with injections. In Block 26. This happened on Juin 4th, 7th, 8th of Juin.

David Boder

What month was it?

David Lea

Juin.

David Boder

June.

David Lea

June. Yes. In 1943. After they did this -sterilizing women and men, and the SS lay, there were some chambers, special for men, young people, and women after certain age, they lay together . . . the SS doctors wanted to have . . . if the breeding of a new race could be prevented. And most of them, would not bear children. Most of them, 95%, would not bear children.

David Boder

Well, and what about the others . . . what . . . ? Did they get pregnant? Or what? Er . . . What does it mean, 95% could not . . . hem, no . . .

David Lea

The 95% could not any more, they took their sperm.

David Boder

Oh. They could not have sex again any more.

David Lea

They could not have sex any more.

David Boder

Right. Then, they put men and women together.

David Lea

Together with the women, and they couldn't do anything. But even if these men were given good food to see if they could do things . . . but of course, even if they were fed the best food in the world, it was impossible for them, because they had been well sterilized.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

And every day, in Birkenau camp, there was a selection of men, from 2,000 to 3,000 men, every night they burned deportees who had been in the camp for three months, or five months, or a year. Such as [unintelligible] Jews, Sephardic Jews, Lithuanian Jews, Hungarians, and they took them to the crematory.

David Boder

Tell me again about the case when you asked for permission . . . permission to pray over the dead.

David Lea

Over . . . ?

David Boder

Didn't you say that they burned the dead and you asked for permission to pray, that you could . . . hem . . . ? You said earlier that you were not allowed to say your . . . hem . . .

David Lea

Ah, yes. I was in Landsberg, in the '45, in Bavaria. I worked in a commando of fifteen Jewish men, and me, sixteen.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

One day, the sister of one of the working commands died in concentration camp number 7. Naturally us, as Jews, called a young man who had a friend, a colleague, to [unintelligible] dig.

David Boder

[The interviewer says the word dig in another language to check whether he understood correctly].

David Lea

[The interviewee confirms what the interviewer understood]. And then, when we made the pit, the SS came to us and said "what are you dirty Jews doing with a book?" The man said . . .

David Boder

Oh! You had a book?

David Lea

Yes. We had a book . . . the Hungarians and the Polish Jews, when the Hungarian, in '44, when we were deported, they brought books [unintelligible] and [unintelligible]. And we kept them in holes in the earth, in our pants, we kept the books of the Law to [unintelligible].

David Boder

To pray.

David Lea

To pray. When he sees it, he says . . . says "what is that dirty book you have, Jew?," but . . .

David Boder

Speak slowly, please.

David Lea

"What is that dirty book you have?" My partner stood up and said "she is my sister and I wanted to pray." And he says "for the dirty you don't need to [unintelligible]." Then he took the shovel and hit the man on the head, and he died instantly. And we buried him with his sister, and other 400 people, in a pit. In each pit we dug, we put 300, 350, 400, 450 people. After two meters and forty centimeters in depth, we threw the earth, and before covering them, we threw [unintelligible] or lime to avoid [unintelligible].

David Boder

To avoid what?

David Lea

[unintelligible]

David Boder

Ah.

David Lea

And then, we would throw rocks and earth, and cover the pit and leave. The following day, we would do the same job, because it was a quarantine camp. It was a camp to kill Jews with the injections. The injections we put, either in the arm, or in the foot, after three to four minutes, the blood would go up to [unintelligible]

David Boder

Where to?

David Lea

When the injection was shot, the blood would come up [unintelligible], they were already preto.

David Boder

Who would put the injections? Did you?

David Lea

No. The SS.

David Boder

The SS.

David Lea

And in many camps, the SS ordered the Jews to put injections, but they did that mandatorily because otherwise, the SS had the machine gun, and it was behind them and "if you don't do this, I will kill you".

David Boder

And . . . ?

David Lea

And of course, the Jew came, and they shot them the injection.

David Boder

But tell me. Where did the blood come from?

David Lea

In the [unintelligible]

David Boder

Here in the . . .

David Lea

And preto and here.

David Boder

Did it seem to flow out?

David Lea

No. It looked all preto, the center of the [unintelligible] with two points, three points, and that was it . . . they died instantly. But after two to three points . . .

David Boder

What did three points do?

David Lea

Three minutes.

David Boder

Three minutes?

David Lea

Two to three minutes, then everything became preto. The [unintelligible] preto. And we took them and threw them in a [unintelligible] and we buried them. Also, in camp 1, in Landsberg, there was the big SS medical. The name was Blanca, a Spanish name . . . tall, dark. As big as myself.

David Boder

A woman?

David Lea

No. A man. His name was Blanca. A tall, dark man, about 35 or 34 years. He couldn't stand Jews, even those who wanted to work, who were healthy, quite many . . . he gave the order to give them shots. This one was killed, this same one, he had a child and a wife. He was . . . he killed himself . . .

David Boder

What do you mean? A child?

David Lea

A small boy.

David Boder

I see . . . A boy?

David Lea

A boy. He had a little boy and a wife with him.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

When the Americans were approaching Lager 1, he saw that they were coming; he didn't have anything to do, nothing to save . . . he took the little boy, sent him to the [unintelligible], then he took a syringe and killed [unintelligible] his wife in the first place, then [unintelligible], and himself. And an acquaintance of mine, who is currently in Paris, took the time and the ring from his hand and . . . When he saw he was already dead, he took the ring and the time from his hand.

David Boder

What do you mean "the time"? The watch?

David Lea

The watch. The time and the ring. This comrade is now in Paris and we see each other every day and every night.

David Boder

Right.

David Lea

I wanted . . .

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

In camp 5, camp 5, after the occupation . . .

David Boder

Camp 5 where?

David Lea

Camp 5 of Landsberg, Bavaria, after the occupation, we were working in commandos, very hard, with trees, to cut trees down for [unintelligible] we couldn't do the job because we didn't have any food and we would say "if you want us to work, give us food," if not [unintelligible]. We can't work 14 hours a day; it's better if you kill us. The SS didn't want to kill us.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

They didn't want to kill us. We are going to make you suffer, we are going to beat you to death and then we are going to kill you when we wish, and as we like. This happened in the Lager (camp) of Landsberg. In Lager 5, in Lager 6, in Lager 7, in Lager 8, in Lager 9, in Lager 10 and in Lager 11. We worked at the [unintelligible] station, that was the commando.

David Boder

[Unintelligible]? [The interviewer confirms the name of the commando in German].

David Lea

[Unintelligible]. [The interviewer repeats the name of the commando in German]. I worked in Lager 7, in commando Tot. My name . . .

David Boder

Tot commando?

David Lea

Tot commando, yes.

David Boder

That was bad! What was it?

David Lea

The Tot commando was a specialized commando for burying the dead, because in Germany it was forbidden to make crematories and burn the dead, because the greatest part of the civil German population ignored that there were crematories and furnaces. Many a time we would come from . . . we came across German civilians and explained to them. And the civilians would say: "German people never do that atrocity." But we told them: "but we told them one day . . . we already know that [unintelligible] Germans, but the story will come to be known, or [unintelligible], or even [unintelligible], that crematories existed in Germany."

David Lea

The largest and cruelest crematory was in Buchenwald camp, in which I have a companion, that we sleep all together in the [unintelligible] of Maison de la Rue [unintelligible]. 9 Rue [unintelligible], Paris. We are 4 of them, 4 Jews. Three are from the Buchenwald camp, and one is from Dachau camp [unintelligible]. One is called [unintelligible], the other's name is Henry Suchami, who currently works with the American Joint. Henry Suchami is the first Sephardic transportation from Greece to Auschwitz. 109,957, first transportation from Greece, who lost his mother, father, family, three children aged five, seven, and eleven, and his wife. And the wife was pregnant.

David Lea

[Unintelligible name], a young man, about 35 years old, lost a child and his wife. And he is included in the Palestine migration list, and there is no chance to leave, not a single chance to leave. The [unintelligible] Palestinian from Paris, who is at 83 Avenue [unintelligible], says, "tomorrow, after tomorrow, five months from now, one month from now, three months from now, you are leaving." This young man has relatives in Palestine, but, as he is thin, he can't leave illegally, he is scared, he is staying with me.

David Boder

Cause he is thin . . .

David Lea

From camp [unintelligible]. As he is [unintelligible] the camp, [unintelligible], he can't even work, nothing. Naturally, what does he expect from me, a partner with whom we were in the camp three years, a piece of bread, or a pant he will have to adapt to his size. If I don't give him a pant, shoes, he doesn't have anything to wear, and . . . he can't work. He has thin, he has [unintelligible] his lungs. This isn't the only case of deportees, there are many deportees here in France, who . . .

David Boder

Of course.

David Lea

There are many deportees here in France, who are still suffering. And we want to go to Palestine, and we see the British barbarism, that if we . . . the young people who came from the camps, if we don't go to Palestine, we would never start working. I, a Lebanese, who am talking to you, wouldn't think to go to work to Palestine ever, I would think of taking the rifle or the machine gun, and claim for freedom. If you don't get freedom through war . . . if I don't get freedom with politics, I get freedom with war. I would never think of going to work. If I die in Palestine, some day my children or my siblings are going to come. Because I have already seen the camp when I was three, I saw the extermination of 6,000 Jews, and would never like this British politics. We, the survivors from the camps, want to go right now fight that dirty rac . . . that dirty British politics and we don't have the possibility because of where we are. Because there are currently in France many Jews, young people, that are migrating illegally.

David Boder

Migrating to France?

David Lea

No. Migrating to Palestine.

David Boder

Yes.

David Lea

And one day, Palestine . . . one day, Palestine we will take it and even if 50,000 Jews died in Palestine in combat, or 100,000 Jews. It is not the important point.

David Boder

[In English] This ends Spool 42 of Mr. David Lea.