David P. Boder Interviews [first name unknown] Rudo; July 30, 1946; Paris, France

var transcription = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] This is a record taken from . . . an apparently Spanish refugee, who was taking classes at the Schools of ORT, in Paris. She is being trained . . . in a profession or in a . . . trade and a . . . further thing she will clear up during this conversation.

David Boder

[In Spanish] Es el . . . julio 30, 1946 . . . ehh . . . recordo tomado por el profesor Boder, Illinois Institute of Technology.

David Boder

Bueno Sra. Rudo, ÂdÃnde nacià Ud.?

[first name unknown] Rudo

CastellÃn de Asturias.

David Boder

Hable un poquito mÃs despacio, mÃs claro.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Castellà d'EmpÃries.

David Boder

Bueno, Ây dÃnde es esto, es muy lejano de Madrid?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ.

David Boder

ÂSÃ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Es en la frontera de Francia.

David Boder

ÂOh! Es la frontera de Francia.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Cerca.

David Boder

SÃ, Ây cuÃntos aÃos tiene Ud. ahora?

[first name unknown] Rudo

37.

David Boder

37. ÂY por quà està Ud. en Francia?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Por la guerra de EspaÃa.

David Boder

Ehh . . . y . . . que . . . ÂQuà participaciÃn tuvo Ud. en la guerra de EspaÃa que està Ud. aquÃ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yo porque . . . pues nos evacuaban pues habÃa Franco del otro lado . . . y pues eh . . . tuvimos que evacuar por las bombas y todo esto.

David Boder

ÂOh!

[first name unknown] Rudo

Estaba con la . . . republicana . . . Âcomprende Ud.?

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y puesto yo de vengo aquÃ.

David Boder

ÂY . . . por quà no regresa Ud. a EspaÃa ahora?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, pero no tengo familia y despuÃs mejor esperar, Âsabe?

David Boder

Aja. ÂQuà pasà . . . [Ininteligible]?

[first name unknown] Rudo

No tengo nadie . . .

David Boder

"No tengo nadie".

[first name unknown] Rudo

No tengo nadie allà y es mejor esperar ahora porque . . .

David Boder

SÃ. ÂPor quà . . . pasà . . . a su familia?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Ya hace tiempo que estÃn . . . que no viven.

David Boder

Eh . . . ÂNo . . . murieron en conexiÃn con la guerra?

[first name unknown] Rudo

No, no estos no.

David Boder

De modo que estuvo Ud. sola tambiÃn allÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, tambiÃn todo el tiempo de guerra estuve sola.

David Boder

Sola, bueno. ÂY quà hace Ud. ahora en Francia?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Ahora, pues, estoy ahà en el centro [Ininteligible] pues . . . eh, porque yo tenÃa mucho reumatismo, todavÃa tengo, pero ahora estoy mejor.

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y yo digo bueno . . . yo . . . si puedo estar aquà voy . . . a estarlo, para ver si me curo.

David Boder

Aja, sÃ. ÂY . . . quà trabajo . . . quà està Ud. aprendiendo aquÃ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

La costura.

David Boder

La costura. ÂY . . . quiere aprender a coser?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, yo a mano sà coser, me falta la mÃquina, mÃs prÃctica, para . . . yo trabajar despuÃs para . . . la gente, eh.

David Boder

Aja. ÂY . . . eh . . . cuÃnto tiempo cree Ud. que le tomarà para aprender?

[first name unknown] Rudo

No sÃ, me parece que son dos meses, Âno?

David Boder

Aja. Eh . . . DÃgame algo de la . . . guerra . . . de la guerra civil en EspaÃa, eh . . . en la parte del norte . . . hubo mucho de . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

Ah . . . Yo no he estado al norte, siempre he estado . . . soy catalana yo.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

He estado en Barcelona siempre.

David Boder

ÂAh! Bueno. ÂY allà hubo mucho de guerra en Barce . . . Â?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, sÃ. Muchos muertos [ininteligible].

David Boder

Y . . . eh . . . ÂY de Barcelona Ud. movià a dÃnde?

[first name unknown] Rudo

ÂOh! Cuando estallà la guerra yo estaba en Sant Cugat del VallÃs, un pueblo cercano de Barcelona.

David Boder

Si.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yo, claro, no và muchas cosas.

David Boder

"No vÃ".

[first name unknown] Rudo

Claro. Yo sentÃa decir solamente, y cuando se . . . calmà . . . la cosa, pues, despuÃs me fui a . . . a Barcelona con la familia que yo vivÃa, que hacÃa de cocinera, Âsabe?

David Boder

ÂOh! Ud. estuvo de cocinera en una familia.

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ.

David Boder

ÂY esa familia se fue adÃnde?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Se marcharon despuÃs . . . eh . . . se marcharon, tuvieron miedo y se marcharon.

David Boder

ÂY adÃnde se . . . ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Se marcharon a Barcelona y despuÃs de Barcelona dice, ahora dice, yo . . . me voy a ir. tenÃa . . . yo cocinera, otra chica, dice ahora nos mudaremos, dice . . .

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Porque dice no tenemos dinero . . . y . . .

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

. . . mi marido no trabaja, Âeh?

David Boder

ÂY hay muchos extranjeros en esa . . . eh . . . ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

[Ininteligible]. Â[Ininteligible]?

David Boder

Bien.

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ. Hoy . . . creo que van a ir unos cuarenta de aquÃ, de Paris, que estÃn enfermos, Âsabes?

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

. . . Eh . . . deportados, eh . . .

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y claro, el trabajo que hacÃan antes ahora no lo pueden hacer porque . . . debido a lo que han pasado y . . . muchos aprenden alguna cosa . . . y . . . un trabajo y lo pueden hacer asà mÃs fÃcil.

David Boder

ÂY Ud. piensa quedarse en Francia, aquà . . . por cuÃnto tiempo?

[first name unknown] Rudo

No sÃ. QuizÃs que sÃ, porque como soy sola, Âcomprende?

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y hace tiempo que estoy fuera y no tengo nada.

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y si tengo un buen trabajo, pues, me quedo aquÃ. ÂPara quà irme?

David Boder

ÂEs la oportunidad de trabajo mejor aquà que en EspaÃa?

[first name unknown] Rudo

ÂCÃmo?

David Boder

ÂEs la oportunidad de trabajo mejor aquà que en EspaÃa?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, sà es mejor.

David Boder

Mejor.

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, mucho mejor.

David Boder

Aja. ÂPero mientras tanto Ud. està con una . . . organizaciÃn que los mantiene?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ. HabÃa . . . Eh . . . [Ininteligible], [Ininteligible].

David Boder

ÂQuà es eso?

[first name unknown] Rudo

[Ininteligible]hay un centro de deportados, antes habÃan . . . eh . . . extranjeros tambiÃn, ahora solamente hay [ininteligible].

David Boder

[Ininteligible]

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y ahora como muchos ya tienen su familia aquÃ, para quà estar allÃ, pues, se han ido a sus casas, solamente ahà va gente que no tiene casa que no tiene nada, hasta que encuentran . . . trabajando . . .

David Boder

Y . . . ÂY dÃnde, cÃmo pasà Ud. la guerra aquà en Francia?

[first name unknown] Rudo

[RiÃndose] . . . ÂCÃmo la otra gente!

David Boder

ÂY dÃnde estuvo Ud. cuando los alemanes vinieron?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yo, à Corbie estaba, à Corbie Eh . . . Corbie y despuÃs me marchà con una amiga a . . . Amiens.

David Boder

Amiens.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Amiens.

David Boder

ÂSe marcharon?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Eh . . . SÃ, y à Corbie habÃan barracas, de refugiados espaÃoles era una [ininteligible].

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y para yo entrar en una casa a trabajar, porque yo me voy, estoy cansada de estar refugiada, yo quiero trabajar, yo . . . esto no es vida. Y claro, yo entrà en una casa a trabajar, y . . . estuve casi un mes. QuizÃs no todavÃa, porque yo tenÃa miedo de los alemanes que venÃan, y yo digo: "ÂUy! ÂQuà voy a hacer aquÃ!" Y yo sabÃa que en Amiens habÃa una chica espaÃola.

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y cada dÃa digo: "Âuy! yo quiero ir con mi amiga". Y yo: "no, Ud. se queda aquÃ", y yo digo: "no, no, quiero ir con mi amiga". Y allà me quedo las dos, con mi amiga y tuve suerte que encontrà enseguida . . . fÃbrica . . . trabajo en la fÃbrica de [ininteligible], de tres dÃas.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y en los tres dÃas vinieron . . . los soldados y [ininteligible] y digo, "oh, lÃ, là !" no tengo suerte, una vez que encuentro un trabajo y estaba contenta, Âeh? Y ahora nada. ÂAy!, sin dinero, sin comida, ni saber el camino donde ir, Âeh? Y claro, dice: "dÃnde vamos". Intentamos evacuar dos o tres veces, con . . . eh . . . no muy lejos los alemanes, los alemanes . . . eh . . . Amiens y los franceses en Cagny y nosotros en Bougainville ÂUy!ÂQuà hacemos! Las bombas, las ametralladoras, se sentÃan y queremos huir, eh . . . intentamos huir, y pero todo si que se veÃa fuego, y cuando se calmà un poco nos marchamos.

David Boder

Aja. ÂY a dÃnde llegaron?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Con un carrazoncito como esos.

David Boder

Con un carrazoncito que tenÃa [ininteligible]

[first name unknown] Rudo

No, no esas. No esas. Un carro de esos de poner los crÃos, esas cosas, Âeh? Y claro, y bueno, y nos perdimos por un camino, y ya anochecÃa, y llovÃa y todo eso.

David Boder

ÂLa perdià Ud. a . . . ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Nos perdimos, nos perdimos las dos.

David Boder

ÂY quiÃn tuvo las cosas?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Nos metimos encima de un monte sin darnos cuenta, y no sà de que sitio venÃan pero tiraban tiros, o sea que si te veÃan te tiraban tiros, nos metimos en un bosque, y claro, se veÃa mÃs nada, y yo: "callate, no digas nada, no digas nada", la otra lloraba, Âeh? Y decÃa: "ÂUy! Âuy! nos matan" y digo: "no todavÃa no nos han muerto".

David Boder

[RiÃndose] Bueno.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y . . . Y despuÃs nos volvimos a casa, a casa, no era nuestra, no era nuestra, era la casa de los patrones que ella trabajaba.

David Boder

ÂY dÃnde estaban los patrones?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Se marcharon, ellos tenÃan bicicleta y se marcharon de prisa.

David Boder

ÂY dejaron la casa abierta?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Dejaron a nosotras dicen . . . despuÃs vamos a venir.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y . . . nosotros dijimos ÂquÃ!, no van a poder venir, Âa ver! si todo esta Âno sabes cÃmo! . . . Ây cÃmo haremos nosotras? Y claro, hasta la maÃana siguiente ya no tenÃas sal, para poner mÃs patatas, ni hacemos la comida de nada . . . y yo digo, yo voy a mirar a ver si encuentro gente para ver si me he lanzado, a ver si yo me entero de algo porque tenemos que salir de aquÃ, Âes imposible! Y claro fui por allà a [Ininteligible], si [Ininteligible] o au Cagny, si yo estaba au Cagny. Y và una familia vieja que no podÃa andar y otra con muchos crÃos, y yo digo: "Âquà hacÃis que no os marchÃis!". Dice: "si quà vamos a hacer con crÃos" y la otra vieja dice: "ÂAh, sÃ! Es que las piernas ya no puede andar me morirÃa con camino" . . . es mejor que . . . a veces . . . [Ininteligible]. DespuÃs vino un soldado y dice . . . dice: "a las dos de la noche se tienen que marchar, sino . . . "

David Boder

ÂEl soldado francÃs?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, a las dos . . . sà estaban allÃ, todos, ya por . . . Âuy, sÃ! . . . Âquà tropa grande! . . . Dice "si a las dos de la noche os tenÃis que marchar . . . eh . . . nosotros estamos acà vamos a empezar a tirar", dice . . . o sino dice: "va ir mal, Âeh!". Y le oigo, y yo contenta, y digo . . . "mejor asà no nos cierran el camino, Âpor quà no partimos?". Y las otras mujeres viejas lloraban . . . ÂdÃnde iremos? ÂdÃnde iremos? Yo digo a mi amiga: "mejor porque asà nos marcharemos, Âeh?" Y . . . nos salvaremos, porque no sabemos lo que va a pasar, nosotros somos extranjeras, Âeh?

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y nos marchamos a [Ininteligible], a [Ininteligible], por el camino encontramos una familia francesa . . . y con su madre muy viejecita y dice . . . " si . . . si, me ayudÃis a llevar la [ininteligible], esta que llevaba mucha cosa . . .

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

. . . "PodÃis poner los bolsos que llevÃis".

David Boder

ÂEllos tenÃan quà . . . una . . . ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Llevaba una mujer . . . su madre vieja.

David Boder

SÃ, Âpero quÃ? ÂtenÃan un carro?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Un carro de estos grandes.

David Boder

SÃ ÂDe mano?

[first name unknown] Rudo

De mano.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y llevaban muchas cosas ahà porque era una familia de cuatro o cinco, Âeh?

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y claro, despuÃs yo tenÃa tabaco, y encontrà soldados en . . . el camino, franceses, y dijeron si me llevÃis un poco . . . lejos . . . pues . . . eh . . . Uds., para ellos es el tabaco, y ellos contentos nos llevaron un poco lejos de ahÃ, y nosotros tambiÃn subimos. ÂUy, contentas, nosotras! ÂMucha historia! Âeh? [riÃndose].

David Boder

SÃ, Ây entonces adÃnde llegaron Uds.?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y fuimos con aquella familia hasta muy lejos, hasta que despuÃs vino el autobÃs y dicen bueno . . . dice, eh . . . solamente los extranjeros se . . . se van, los que se quieren se van a marchar enseguida, ahora, pues como quieren, Âeh? Y es que la gente se quedà porque . . . trabajaba . . . era . . . de la mÃquina del tren, trabajaba, maquinista: "Y yo, yo me quedo por aquà porque yo voy a trabajar me falta dinero". Y nosotros dijimos: "no, nosotros vamos lejos, pues, porque no nos . . . nos interesa quedar aquà porque van a tirar bombas tambiÃn", y . . . nos llevaron a [Ininteligible], y a los dos meses . . . quisimos venir a . . . à Amiens. La gente decÃa quà vais a hacer à Amiens, sabÃan que todo estaba destrozado, Âoh! nosotros tenemos las maletas . . .

David Boder

Aja. Bueno, y . . . entonces . . . ÂdÃnde se quedà Ud. durante la ocupaciÃn alemana?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Amiens.

David Boder

ÂAmiens?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Amiens. Nosotros nos detenemos . . . eh . . .

David Boder

ÂY trabajaba en Amiens?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Sà . . . trabajaba, lavaba para una persona o cosÃa o . . . asÃ, porque no encontraba trabajo, la gente de aquà ya decÃa: "Âah! Ârojos, rojos, no! Ârojos, no!" decÃan, Âsabe? Y sin papeles porque a nosotros no nos . . .

David Boder

ÂPor quà rojos? Porque . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

ÂAh! DecÃan rojos porque ellos asociaban . . .

David Boder

Porque eran espaÃoles.

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ.

David Boder

ÂOh, oh! Entonces . . . ÂY estuvieron alemanes allÃ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, habÃa. HabÃa . . . Ã Amiens estaba todo destrozado, habÃa alemanes, desde luego.

David Boder

Bueno, Ây los hombres espaÃoles, los refugiados, quà hicieron durante la guerra?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Se marcharon à PÃronne. Cuando yo estaba . . . eh . . . cÃmo se llama . . . eh . . . à Corbie pues los mandaron à PÃronne, a todos los que no trabajaban.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y no sÃ, se perdieron por los caminos y cuando vinieron los alemanes . . . se mataron muchos, dijeron, yo no vÃ, Âeh? Y . . . yo digo . . . y yo me . . . arrimo con esta chica . . . y las dos . . . trabajamos y nos ayudamos.

David Boder

Aja. ÂY cÃmo . . . ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Esta chica le cogieron al marido tambiÃn prisionero . . . serÃan nuestros soldados franceses [ininteligible] lo cogieron al . . . como se llama . . . [ÂIninteligible] la frontera.

David Boder

ÂY cuando regresaron Uds. a Paris?

[first name unknown] Rudo

A Paris, viniendo de . . . de Alemania.

David Boder

ÂEstuvo Ud. en Alemania?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ.

David Boder

ÂPor quÃ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Porque me llevaron.

David Boder

ÂQuiÃn?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Los alemanes.

David Boder

ÂOh! DÃgame, los alemanes la llevaron a Alemania Âpor quÃ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Porque decÃan que era roja.

David Boder

Aja. ÂY entonces . . . ? eh . . . un momentito. Bueno, Âpor quà la llevaron a Alemania?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yo no sà por quà me llevaron a Alemania . . .

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Eh . . . porque . . . decÃan que era roja y yo: "por quà si aquà . . . estoy en Francia y . . . yo no tengo que ir a ningÃn sitio". "Nada, nada, nada", dice, "vaya a coger enseguida o . . . sino la llevamos . . . "

David Boder

SÃ. ÂY cuÃndo Ud. la tomaron de allÃ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y yo solÃa tener cuidado, y yo venÃa de hacerme rizado el pelo, un dÃa tarde, Âsabe?

David Boder

ÂCÃmo?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yo venÃa de me hacerme rizado el pelo.

David Boder

SÃ, sÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Me venÃa de rizar el cabello.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y era tarde y me perdÃ, la calle, porque . . . està muy destrozado Amiens.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y me perdÃ, porque a aquella hora ya no habÃa . . . luz, Âeh? Yo no querÃa de terminar tan tarde.

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y aquella chica . . . ÂVenga, ah! La chica se ve que aprendÃa, y nunca terminaba, y por fin terminà a . . . las diez y media.

David Boder

SÃ, entonces la llevaron a Alemania . . . Ây quà les hicieron hacer allÃ? ÂTrabajaban?

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, trabajÃbamos.

David Boder

ÂA dÃnde trabajaban?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Eh . . . mire, primero . . . a las mÃquinas . . . pero muy duro para mÃ, Âeh?

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y despuÃs cuando veÃan que no podÃa, que yo . . . lo echaba a perder todo.

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y yo pensaba: "no, esta gente me va a matar", Âeh? Y yo . . . que estoy . . . digo . . . es que yo me sube la . . . sangre a la cabeza a veces. Y yo digo, bueno, voy a ver al mÃdico. Yo voy a tener miedo al mÃdico, pero que vea que ya mi temperamento està mal, porque yo he echado a perder todo, me querÃan ir a meter, bueno . . . eh . . .

David Boder

Aja.

[first name unknown] Rudo

A esos campos tan, tan disciplinarios, Âeh?

David Boder

SÃ.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Y cuando fui, y despuÃs me llevaron a . . . un campo, a un trabajo . . . si era muy abierto, tenÃa que hacer ejercicio, desde luego, pero no era tan cansador como los otros.

David Boder

Bueno, yo creo que nosotros terminamos otro dÃa esto porque yo quiero saber a Ud. que le hicieron. El seÃor està esperando que me vaya . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

SÃ, bien, bien.

David Boder

MuchÃsimas gracias seÃora . . .

var english_translation = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] This is a record taken from . . . an apparently Spanish refugee, who was taking classes at the school of ORT, in Paris. She is being trained . . . in a profession or in a . . . trade and a . . . further thing she will clear up during this conversation.

David Boder

[In Spanish] It is July 30th, 1946. Recording taken by Professor Boder, Illinois Institute of Technology.

David Boder

Good morning Ms. Rudo. Where were you born?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Castellà d'EmpÃries.

David Boder

Could you please speak louder and clearer?

[first name unknown] Rudo

CastellÃn de Asturias.

David Boder

OK. And where is that? Is it far from Madrid?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes.

David Boder

Really?

[first name unknown] Rudo

It is near the French border.

David Boder

Oh! Near the French border.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. Quite near.

David Boder

How old are you now?

[first name unknown] Rudo

37.

David Boder

37. And why are you in France?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Because of the War in Spain.

David Boder

And what was your participation in the Spanish War that made you come here?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Well, we were evacuated because Franco was on the other side . . . er . . . we had to be evacuated because of the bombs and all those problems.

David Boder

Oh!

[first name unknown] Rudo

I was in favor of the Republic, you see?

David Boder

Yes.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And that is why I came here.

David Boder

Why don't you return to Spain?

[first name unknown] Rudo

I have no family there, and it is better to wait, you know.

David Boder

Right. What happened [unintelligible]?

[first name unknown] Rudo

I have no one.

David Boder

You have no one.

[first name unknown] Rudo

I have no one, and it is better for me to wait because . . .

David Boder

Yes. What happened to your family?

[first name unknown] Rudo

It has been a long time . . . they are not alive.

David Boder

So they did not die as a consequence of the war . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

No, they did not.

David Boder

So you were also alone when you were there.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. I was alone during the whole war.

David Boder

OK. And what do you do in France?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Well, now I am here at the [unintelligible] Center . . . I suffered a lot from rheumatism, I am still suffering . . . but I am much better.

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And I keep telling to myself . . . if I can stay here . . . I will stay and see if I get better.

David Boder

I see. And what trade are you learning here?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Sewing.

David Boder

Sewing. So you want to learn how to sew.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. I know how to sew, but I do not have a sewing machine, and I need to practice . . . so that I can work later . . . for other people.

David Boder

Right. And how long do you think it will take you to learn?

[first name unknown] Rudo

I don't know. I think it takes two months . . .

David Boder

OK. Now, tell me something about the war, The Spanish Civil War . . . In the Northern area, were there many . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

I have never been to the North, I have always been . . . I am from Catalonia.

David Boder

Oh.

[first name unknown] Rudo

I have always been in Barcelona.

David Boder

All right, then. Were there many acts of war in Barcelona?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes! Lots of dead people [unintelligible].

David Boder

And were did you go from Barcelona?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Oh! When the war started, I was in Sant Cugat del VallÃs, a town near Barcelona.

David Boder

OK

[first name unknown] Rudo

Of course, I did not see many things.

David Boder

You didn't . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

Well, I heard lots of stories, and when everything was calmer . . . well, I went to . . . to Barcelona, to the family I used to live with. I was their cook, you know?

David Boder

Oh! So you were working as a cook with a family.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes.

David Boder

And where did that family go?

[first name unknown] Rudo

They took off some time later . . . they took off, they were scared and they took off.

David Boder

Where did . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

They went to Barcelona, and when they were in Barcelona, they told us . . . "we are leaving" . . . I was a cook, and they had another girl, and they said they were moving . . .

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

The said they did not have any money . . . and . . .

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

. . . she said her husband was not working . . . er . . .

David Boder

Are there many foreign people in . . . ?

[first name unknown] Rudo

The [unintelligible] Center?

David Boder

Yes.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Oh. Today . . . I think there are around forty here, from Paris. They are sick, you know.

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Er . . . They have been deported . . .

David Boder

Oh.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And of course, they cannot do the work they were doing before . . . because of all the things they have been through . . . many of them are learning a new job . . . and they can do it more easily.

David Boder

Are you planning to stay here in France . . . for how long?

[first name unknown] Rudo

I'm not sure. May be I will stay, because I am alone, you see?

David Boder

Oh.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And I have been abroad for a long time and I have nothing.

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

If I find a good job, I will stay here. Why would I leave?

David Boder

Do you have better chances of finding a job here than in Spain?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Pardon me.

David Boder

Do you have better chances of finding a job here than in Spain?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes, of course.

David Boder

Better . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. Much better.

David Boder

Right. But in the meantime, you are with an organization that supports you, right?

David Boder

Oh. Yes. Er . . . [The name of the Center is unintelligible].

David Boder

What is that?

[first name unknown] Rudo

[Unintelligible] is a center for deported people. There used to be also foreign people, but there are only [unintelligible] now.

David Boder

[Unintelligible]

[first name unknown] Rudo

And since many of them now have their families here, why would they stay at the center? They have gone to their own houses. Only homeless people stay there, until they find . . . er . . . a job.

David Boder

And where and how did you live through the war here in France?

[first name unknown] Rudo

[Laughing] Just like the others!

David Boder

And where were you when the Germans came here?

[first name unknown] Rudo

I was in Corbie . . . In Corbie, and then I left with a girl friend to Amiens.

David Boder

Amiens . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

Right. Amiens . . .

David Boder

So you left.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. In Corbie there were barrack huts with Spanish refugees. It was a [unintelligible].

David Boder

Oh.

[first name unknown] Rudo

I wanted to start working in a house. I was tired of being a refugee, I wanted to work . . . Ithought to myself "This is not living". I started working in a house, and I worked there for about a month. I was really scared of the arrival of Germans . . . so I said: "Oh! What am I going to do here?" And I knew there was a Spanish girl in Amiens.

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

So I kept telling myself: "Oh . . . I want to go with my friend." And then I would think "No. You must stay here." But then again . . . "I want to go with my friend . . . " So I finally stayed with my friend, and I was lucky because I immediately found a . . . factory . . . a job at a [unintelligible] factory, three days.

David Boder

Oh.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Three days passed . . . and the soldiers arrived, and [unintelligible]. So I said "Oh . . . I am not lucky." Once I find a job and I was happy . . . And now I have nothing. No money, no food, no idea where to go . . . So my friend said: "Where shall we go?" And we tried to escape two or three times, with . . . er . . . the Germans nearby . . . er . . . Amiens, and the French in Cagny, and us in Bougainville . . . "Oh! What shall we do?" We could hear the bombs, the machine guns . . . and we wanted to run away. Er . . . we tried to escape but we could only see fire. So when everything was calmer, we left.

David Boder

Right. And where did you go?

[first name unknown] Rudo

We left with a cart.

David Boder

A cart with [unintelligible].

[first name unknown] Rudo

No. Not those. A baby cart, more like a pram. And well . . . we got lost down a path, and it was getting darker, and it was raining and all that.

David Boder

You lost your friend?

[first name unknown] Rudo

The two of us got lost.

David Boder

And what happened?

[first name unknown] Rudo

We did not realize and we ended up on a low hill. I really donât know where they were coming from, but we could hear gun shots. So we hid in the woods and we could see nothing. I kept saying "Shut up. Donât say a word. Donât say a word." And my friend was crying. And she kept saying: "Oh! They are going to kill us!", and I would reply: "No. We have not died yet."

David Boder

[Laughing] What a story!

[first name unknown] Rudo

And . . . then we came back to our house. Well, it was not our house. It was my friendâs employersâ house.

David Boder

And where were her employers?

[first name unknown] Rudo

They had escaped. They had a bike and they rushed away.

David Boder

And they left the house open?

[first name unknown] Rudo

They left us . . . and they said they would come back.

David Boder

Oh.

[first name unknown] Rudo

But we were sure they would not return. We thought: "They will not be able to return". You cannot imagine what it was like . . . "What shall we do?" The following morning, we had no salt for the potatoes, and no food to cook . . . so I said "I will see if I can find someone, if I learn of a way, because we need to get out of here. This is impossible!" And I went to [unintelligible], yes, to [unintelligible] or Cagny . . . Yes I was in Cagny. And I saw an old family. They could barely walk. And another family with kids. So I said: "What are you doing? You have to leave." And they said: "what shall we do with the kids?", and an old woman said: "Oh, yes! But my legs . . . I cannot walk anymore. I would die on my way" . . . it is better than . . . sometimes . . . [unintelligible]. Then a soldier came to us and said: "You have to leave, if not . . . "

David Boder

Was it a French soldier?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. And they approached both of us . . . Oh, they were all there . . . Oh, yes . . . What a large troop! And he said: "you both have to leave tonight . . . er . . . we are here and we will start shooting" . . . And he added "otherwise, you will have a bad time." And when I heard him, I was happy and I said: "Much better. They will be closing the road . . . Why donât we run away?" And the old women were crying: "where shall we go? where shall we go?" And I told my friend: "this is better, because we are leaving, right? And we will save our lives, because we donât know what can happen. We are foreigners."

David Boder

Oh . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

So we left towards [unintelligible], to [unintelligible], and on our way we saw a French family . . . the mother was very old . . . and she says: "If you help me carry the [unintelligible]," [she was carrying too much stuff] . . .

David Boder

Oh . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

. . . "you can put your bags."

David Boder

What did they have?

[first name unknown] Rudo

They were carrying a woman . . . their old mother.

David Boder

Yes. But, what did they have? Did they have a cart?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. A big cart.

David Boder

Like a push-cart . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes, a push-cart.

David Boder

All right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And they were carrying many things, because it was a family of four or five, you see . . .

David Boder

All right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And I had some tobacco . . . and I found some soldiers down the road . . . French. And we said: "If you take us far away . . . well . . . er . . . you . . . the tobacco is for you." And they took us far away, and they were happy . . . And we jumped in. Oh, we were so happy! What a story, uh [laughing].

David Boder

Indeed! So where did they take you?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Well, we went really far away with that family. And then a bus came, and they said . . . er . . . only foreigners . . . may leave, you may leave right away. As you wish . . . And people stayed because . . . they were working . . . he was . . . in the train, he was the engine driver: "I will stay here because I will work. I need the money." And we said: "No. We are going away, because we . . . we are not interested in staying here . . . they will be throwing bombs too," and they took us to [unintelligible]. And two months later, we wanted to come to Amiens. People said "what are you going to do in Amiens". They knew everything had been destroyed. But we said: "Oh, we have our luggage."

David Boder

Right. So, then. Where did you stay during the German occupation?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Amiens.

David Boder

Amiens?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Amiens. We stopped . . .

David Boder

And did you work in Amiens?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes . . . I would do the laundry for a person, or sew . . . because I could not find a job. People here were already saying: "Red! Not red!", you know? And we were illegal, because we . . .

David Boder

Why did they call you red? Because . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

Oh! They would call us "reds" because they would associate . . .

David Boder

Because you were from Spain.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Exactly.

David Boder

Oh! So . . . Were there any Germans there?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. Amiens was completely destroyed. And, of course, there were Germans.

David Boder

OK. And what did Spanish refugees do during the war?

[first name unknown] Rudo

They went to PÃronne. When I was in . . . er . . . what was the name . . . er . . . Corbie, they were sent to PÃronne, all those that were not working.

David Boder

Aha.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And I donât know. They got lost down the road, and when the Germans came . . . many were killed.So it was said. I did not see anything . . . And I say . . . I am with this girl friend . . . both of us . . . we worked, we helped each other.

David Boder

Right. How?

[first name unknown] Rudo

This girlâs husband was also took as a prisoner . . . must be our French soldiers [unintelligible] . . . he was caught . . . er . . . [unintelligible] the border.

David Boder

When did you return to Paris?

[first name unknown] Rudo

To Paris . . . when we were returning from Germany.

David Boder

Oh! So you were in Germany!

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes.

David Boder

Why?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Because I was taken there.

David Boder

By who?

[first name unknown] Rudo

The Germans.

David Boder

Oh! Tell me . . . why did the Germans take you to Germany?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Because they said I was a "red".

David Boder

Right. So . . . er . . . wait a second. Why did they take you to Germany?

[first name unknown] Rudo

I have no idea why they took me to Germany . . .

David Boder

Yes.

[first name unknown] Rudo

Well . . . they said I was a "red" and I would say: "why? I am in France . . . I have nowhere to go." "Hush!", they said "go get your . . . or we will take you."

David Boder

Yes. When did they capture you?

[first name unknown] Rudo

I was usually very careful. I had my hair done, one afternoon, and when I was coming back . . . you see?

David Boder

Pardon me.

[first name unknown] Rudo

I was coming back from the hairdresserâs.

David Boder

Yes. I see.

[first name unknown] Rudo

I had my hair curled.

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And it was late. I got lost, I could not find the street . . . because Amiens was really destroyed.

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

I got lost, because it was late, and dark . . . I did not want to return so late.

David Boder

Aha.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And the girl . . . Oh, God! She must have been learning, she would never finish . . . until she finally did . . . it was half past ten.

David Boder

So, you were taken to Germany . . . And what did they make you do there? Did you work?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Yes. We had to work.

David Boder

Where did you work?

[first name unknown] Rudo

Well . . . At first . . . with the machines . . . but it was really hard for me.

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And then, when they saw I couldn't . . . that I kept doing everything wrong . . .

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And I thought: "This people will kill me!" And I . . . I am . . . I mean . . . I sometimes lost my temper. And I say: "OK. I will see a doctor." And I was scared of the doctor . . . but I wanted him to see I was not well, because I had spoilt everything. They wanted to take me, well . . . er . . .

David Boder

Aha.

[first name unknown] Rudo

To those camps . . . very disciplined . . .

David Boder

Right.

[first name unknown] Rudo

And I was taken to a . . . a camp . . . a job . . . it was in the open air. I had to exercise, of course, but it was not as tiring as the others.

David Boder

Well. I think we will have to finish some other day, because I want to know what they did to you. And the man is waiting for me to leave . . .

[first name unknown] Rudo

OK. Fine.

David Boder

Thank you very much, madam.