David P. Boder Interviews Abraham Schrameck; August 21, 1946; Paris, France

var transcription = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] Yes, introduce yourself.

Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Alors, donne ton nom et quelques dÃtails de ta carriÃre.

Abraham Schrameck

Je compte actuellement cinquante ans de vie publique dans mon pays. Vingt-cinq ans de carriÃre administrative et pendant le mÃme temps, de mandat lÃgislatif. Je n'avais jamais songà dans mon tout jeune Ãge, fils de modeste nÃgociant dans un dÃpartement du Centre à Saint-Etienne Loire, à faire une carriÃre d'homme publique. La circonstance en a, en son temps, dÃcidÃ. Il s'est trouvà que j'ai Ãtà invità par le PrÃfet du dÃpartement dont je suis originaire, à occuper l'emploi de chef à son cabinet. Il s'agissait de Monsieur LÃpine, avec lequel je suis revenu ensuite à Paris, oà il a occupà les fonctions de PrÃfet de Police et laissà un souvenir que les Parisiens aiment encore à se rappeler, car je ne crois pas qu'il y ait quoi que ce soit, quelque soit le mÃrite de ses successeurs, qu'aucun d'eux ne peut le faire oublier. En quittant la PrÃfecture de Police, lorsque mon chef devint chef du gouverneur gÃnÃral de l'AlgÃrie, ou gouverneur gÃnÃral de l'AlgÃrie, j'ai dÃbutà pour mon compte à Marseille, en qualità de secrÃtaire gÃnÃral de la PrÃfecture. Je suis restÃe quelques annÃes. Je suis allà dans deux autres dÃpartements. Je suis revenu à Paris au MinistÃre de l'IntÃrieur occuper une Direction, et je suis revenu à Marseille à la PrÃfecture mÃme. J'y suis restà . . . . quoique n'Ãtre prÃfet à aucun moment, pendant sept ou huit ans oà j'exerÃais mes fonctions, de telle sorte que j'ai Ãtà par Monsieur ClÃmenceau envoyà ensuite au gouvernement gÃnÃral de Madagascar. Et comme mes concitoyens de Marseille m'offraient, deux ans aprÃs, de me confier un mandat pour les reprÃsenter au SÃnat, j'ai acceptà cette marque de leur . . . j'ai rÃpondu à cette marque de leur confiance. Et c'est de là que, quelque temps aprÃs, les circonstances ont fait que Monsieur PainlevÃ, Chef du gouvernement, m'a demandà d'Ãtre Ministre de l'IntÃrieur. J'Ãtais Ministre de l'IntÃrieur pendant la durÃe de son ministÃre, non sans difficultÃs quelque fois dans Paris avec les ÃlÃments de dÃsordre d'extrÃme droite qui manifestaient un peu trop publiquement dÃjà leur haine des institutions rÃpublicaines. Et lorsque le gouvernement a retirÃ, j'ai repris donc mon mandat.

Abraham Schrameck

Faisant partie au SÃnat des commissions des finances et de la commission de l'aviation, qui me permettait de me rendre compte de la situation dans laquelle nous nous trouvions au point de vue de notre dÃfense contre les attaques Ãventuelles de l'Allemagne qu'on pouvait dÃjà prÃvoir, nous nous sommes pas fait faute, dans des commissions auxquelles j'appartenais au SÃnat, d'appeler souvent l'attention du gouvernement sur l'insuffisance de ses prÃparatifs en prÃsence de la . . . de ce . . . en prÃsence . . . . ah . . . [longue pause] de l'accumulation des moyens d'attaque à laquelle l'Allemagne se livrait dÃjà et qui, dans les commissions parlementaires, Ãtaient dÃjà connues. Nous n'avons malheureusement pas toujours trouvÃ, auprÃs ni du gouvernement ni de l'ensemble mÃme de l'opinion publique, le crÃdit, l'accueil que nos observations auraient dà . . . [pause] . . . huh?

Abraham Schrameck

. . . justifier, oui. ["pas le mot, mais enfin Ãa ne fait rien . . . " parle loin de mic] et que malheureusement, l'ÃvÃnement a dÃmontrà que nous Ãtions encore au-dessous de la vÃritÃ. Nous n'avions jamais cessà de signaler, en particulier pour ce qui concernait l'aviation, d'Ãtat d'infÃriorità rÃellement excessif dans lequel nous nous trouvions par rapport à nos belliqueux voisins. [long pause] La guerre Ãclatant, nous en Ãtions fiÃs jusqu'à un certain point, ne pouvant faire autrement, aux tÃmoignages que nous apportaient les chefs de nos armÃes. La guerre Ãclatant et le dÃsastre ayant pris des proportions excessives, tous ceux qui, comme moi, appartenaient à la confession israÃlite, devaient s'attendre à ce que . . . ils soient de la part des vainqueurs l'objet de . . . de persÃcutions qui n'ont pas manquà de suivre. Et ils ne devaient pas s'attendre non plus, Ãtant donnà les conditions dans lesquelles le MarÃchal PÃtain et son chef de gouvernement sous Laval avaient pris le pouvoir, parce que ceux-ci ne feraient quoi que ce soit pour les leur Ãpargner. Pour ce qui me concerne, je n'ai pas eu longtemps à attendre. DÃs le mois de septembre, j'Ãtais envoyà en dÃtention administrative à Pellevoisin. Les commissaires . . . un commissaire de police venait me chercher chez moi à Marseille et m'emmener dans cet Ãtablissement oà je me suis trouvà avec d'autres personnalitÃs et qui avaient Ãgalement attirà l'attention en raison de leur indÃpendance d'opinion, comme Mandel, malheureusement a disparu du fait . . . heu . . . des . . . du fait des agents sous Laval, comme Marx Dormoy, Ãgalement ancien Ministre de l'IntÃrieur, et comme un certain nombre d'autres . . . heuh, [parle loin de mic: "je ne sais pas comment j'ai commencà ma phrase, je vais essayer de la finir . . . "] Je suis restà dans cet Ãtablissement pendant quelques mois. De lÃ, j'Ãtais envoyà au dÃbut de '40 en . . . [quelqu'un interrompt loin de mic: "41"] oui, dans ce . . . surveillÃ. Mais continuellement, euh . . . sous les . . . euh . . . ma correspondance ouverte, mes visites contrÃlÃes, et . . . je ne . . . nous ne devons pas pouvoir quitter cette rÃsidence qu'avec une autorisation administrative. Il n'en est pas moins vrai que lorsque les Allemands reparlent de devoir rouvr[ir] la ligne de dÃmarcation qu'ils avaient acceptà au moment de l'Armistice, je quittais cette rÃsidence quoi qu'il en soit. Je suis revenu chez moi à Marseille que je . . . dont on ne me voulait pas trop Ãloigner. Et allant de temps en temps dans un dÃpartement voisin, oà la Gestapo venait me chercher, je n'ai pu Ãviter d'Ãtre mis en Ãtat d'arrestation par elle que grÃce à la bonne volontà et au dÃvouement de certains employÃs municipaux qui m'ont prÃvenu qu'elle m'attendait. Je rentrais à Marseille, et lÃ, du fait de nos amis amÃricains, j'Ãtais dans un rÃle oà il y va de ma vie, puisque un bombardement auquel ils se sont livrÃs sur Marseille le 27 mai, toutes les vitres de ma maison, la maison dans laquelle j'habitais, ont sautÃ. La fumÃe a envahi et j'ai dà retourner dans mon pied-Ã-terre personnel jusqu'au moment oà j'ai vu dÃbarquer ou j'ai vu descendre dans la ville des Marocains ou des troupes marocaines qui quelques jours auparavant avaient dÃbarquà en MÃditerranÃe sous les ordres du GÃnÃral de Lattre de Tassigny. Telles ont Ãtà les tribulations latines, par lesquelles j'ai donc passà cette pÃriode de guerre, sachant, heureusement prÃvenu pendant la pÃriode oà j'Ãtais à Marseille, sachant que j'Ãtais recherchÃ, mais sans me douter de graves pÃrils que je courais si par hasard j'Ãtais tombà entre leurs mains. Je dois le dire, car menà [inintelligible] de la faÃon dont mes concitoyens marseillais ont fait ce qu'ils pouvaient pour Ãviter . . . m'Ãviter cette cruelle extrÃmitÃ, me provenant bien mÃme des hauts fonctionnaires me faisant savoir qu'au besoin je pourrais me rÃfugier, si je le jugeais à propos, à la PrÃfecture mÃme que j'avais occupÃe en tant que chef du dÃpartement pendant un certain nombre d'annÃes, si je croyais que mon sÃjour lÃ-bas pendant quelques heures pourrait m'abriter des recherches dont j'Ãtais l'objet. Enfin, de diffÃrents autres cÃtÃs, des amis politiques eh . . . . pris rendez-vous avec un ou deux amis mÃmes . . . Ãmus par le risque que l'on courrait, des personnes que quelquefois je n'ai mÃme pas à peine connues de nom autrefois, sont mis à ma disposition pour me faciliter Ãventuellement les . . . des possibilitÃs d'existence.

Abraham Schrameck

Ca suffit. J'ai rÃpondu à votre question?

David Boder

[In English] Yes. I'm thinking of something.

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] Pendant ce temps, à Paris oà j'avais un appartement, il va sans dire que les Allemands ont fait place nette. Il n'y a rien restà de tout ce que j'avais, ni d'une bibliothÃque, ni de tout ce que j'avais de mes parents, depuis plus d'une centaine d'annÃes. Tout a Ãtà emportÃ, et je me suis trouvà dÃnuà de tous moyens de recommencer ou de continuer mon ancienne existence.

David Boder

[In English] [To interpreter] I want to know if there were many of your father's friends collaborating with Vichy and the Germans.

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] Des amis politiques?

Abraham Schrameck

Je n'en vois pas. Ils sont trÃs rares. Il n'y en a mÃme pas. Et voici pourquoi. C'est parce que Monsieur Laval, auparavant au Parlement, ne jouissait pas dÃjà d'une trÃs bonne rÃputation. Il Ãtait dÃjà considÃrà comme, depuis pas mal d'annÃes, comme faisant au Parlement ce qui pouvait Ãtre agrÃable à l'Allemagne. On se souvenait qu'à la guerre prÃcÃdente, il Ãtait allà . . . oà c'Ãtait?

Abraham Schrameck

. . . à Quintal pour essayer d'obtenir en faveur des Allemands une paix blanche, n'est-ce pas? Et chaque fois que des dÃbats de politique ÃtrangÃre s'Ãtablissent . . . s'instituaient au Parlement, eh bien, il se manifestait anti-britannique, anti-amÃricain, et pro-allemand. Par consÃquent, on ne lui Ãtait gÃnÃralement pas favorable. Et il . . . je crois bien que, si les Parlementaires qui ont donnà leur confiance au MarÃchal PÃtain à Vichy, s'Ãtaient doutÃs que le MarÃchal PÃtain, bien Ãclairà sur ce qu'Ãtait Laval, continuerait cependant à lui confier le gouvernement, eh bien, ils n'auraient pas votà comme ils ont eu votÃ. Pour mon compte, je connais des parlementaires d'opinion trÃs modÃrÃe qui pendant le court sÃjour que j'ai fait à Vichy, sont allÃs voir le MarÃchal et lui ont dit ce qu'ils pensaient de Laval. Ils avaient des raisons de croire que, Ãtant donnà la confiance que le MarÃchal devait avoir en leurs paroles, le MarÃchal ne se fierait pas à Laval, et puis il s'en dÃbarrasserait aussi promptement qu'il le pourrait. Au lieu de Ãa, il semble qu'il soit laissà complÃtement . . . euh . . .

Abraham Schrameck

. . . guidÃ, inspirà par ce mauvais gÃnie, et . . . il est bien certain que Ãa n'a pas permis . . . que Ãa Ãcartait beaucoup de ceux que connaissait le MarÃchal, du gouvernement, du MarÃchal lui-mÃme et de Vichy. D'ailleurs, ce qui le prouve, c'est que le MarÃchal a cru [inintelligible] conseiller Laval, qui Ãtait malgrà tout un habile politicien, qu'il avait intÃrÃt à crÃer une sorte d'assemblÃe, euh . . . consultative de son gouvernement à Vichy mÃme. Il l'a crÃÃe, il a essayà d'y mettre, en recrutant dans tous les partis, des personnalitÃs diverses qui avaient mÃme appartenues trop pas mal pour une fraction mÃme importante aux deux anciennes chambres, à l'ancienne chambre des dÃputÃs et à l'ancien sÃnat. Eh bien, tout de suite, il s'y est manifestà un tel esprit contre les dispositions que lui-mÃme prÃnait qu'il n'a pas osà la rÃunir une seconde fois. Et que les commissions qu'il avait nommÃes ne se sont mÃme pas rÃunies et n'ont aucune fait face aux objectifs que le MarÃchal PÃtain s'Ãtait proposà de leur derniÃre [inintelligible].

David Boder

[In English] What I wanted to know is when France was split so to speak in two, to what extent were all [Schrameck interrupts with a sneeze] personally good or bad to each other? Now for instance, your father was in prison for three months. Where did your friends from before, that would have done something to get him out and not . . . [inaudible]? That's what I mean.

Louis Kahn

[In French] Le professeur Boder voudrait savoir si, à la suite de la division de la France en deux zones, les FranÃais ont eux-mÃmes Ãtà divisÃs entre eux. Et si en particulier, du fait qu'on vous Ãtiez mis en prison, vos amis se dÃtournaient de vous.

Abraham Schrameck

Je ne peux pas dire qu'ils se dÃtournaient de moi. Mais il est certain que pour la plupart, à quelques exceptions intÃressantes prÃs d'ailleurs, ils prenaient beaucoup de prÃcautions et que s'il y a quelques-uns qui sont venus me voir, ben, il y en a d'autres qui en sont quelquefois pas trÃs loin et qui auraient pu faire un petit dÃtour pour venir voir ce que j'Ãtais. Bon, en d'autres temps, ils l'auraient fait, et à ce moment-lÃ, par prÃcaution pour eux-mÃmes, eh ben, ils n'ont pas osà le faire. Je reconnais que je n'ai pas le droit de leur en vouloir, parce qu'ils auraient couru des risques personnels qu'il Ãtait inutile qu'ils courent. Et c'est ainsi que les gens qui m'ont prÃtà leurs concours dans la derniÃre pÃriode quand j'ai Ãtà à Marseille, incontestablement couraient beaucoup de risques. Je couvais [?] chez des amis. Si on m'avait trouvà avec ces amis, il n'est pas sÃr, il est mÃme possible que j'eusse eu à rÃpondre de l'hospitalità qu'ils me donnaient, et qu'on aurait pris contre eux aussi des mesures auxquelles ils devaient, Ãvidemment pour un certain nombre, peut-Ãtre pas à s'exposer. Ils [inintelligible] cependant, vous voyez, parce que c'est grÃce à eux que je suis sorti indemne de toutes ces tribulations. Eh bien, il s'en est trouvà tout de mÃme qui ont eu ce courage. Et en nombre relativement sÃrieux.

David Boder

[In English] Well, Monsieur Schrameck, I did not understand everything you said, but you said it so interestingly that I think that the people in America and our students would listen to your story with very great interest. Would you tell me how old you are?

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] Eh bien, j'ai maintenant soixante dix-huit ans.

David Boder

[In English] Seventy-eight. Well, looks still like a young man.

Marcelle Kahn

When my father was in prison in Pellevoisin, his birthday was celebrated with a cake, his seventy-fourth birthday was celebrated with Marx Dormoy, with Mandel who has been killed.

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] L'administrateur, le PrÃsident de la chambre, comment il s'appelle? Vincent Auriol?

Marcelle Kahn

Vincent Auriol.

David Boder

[In English] Well, it takes great courage to celebrate it.

var english_translation = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] Yes, introduce yourself.

Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Give your name and some details about your career.

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] To date I have done fifty years of public service for my country. Twenty-five years of my administrative career and during the same time, elected office in the legislature. I never dreamed when I was very young, the son of an ordinary merchant in the Centre department at St. Etienne Loire, that I would have a career as a public figure. Circumstances, in their own time, made the decision for me. It turned out that I was invited by the Prefect of the Department where I was born, to take a position as head of his office. It was Mr. LÃpine who invited me, whom I then accompanied to Paris, where he was Prefect of Police and where he is still fondly remembered, because no matter what, no matter how great his successors were, none of them could supplant him in our memories. When I left the Prefecture of Police, when my boss became head of the general governor of Algeria . . . or rather General Governor of Algeria, I started working for myself in Marseille, as secretary general of the prefecture. I stayed a few years. I went to work in two other Departments. I returned to Paris to the Ministry of the Interior to take a management position, and I returned to Marseille to the same Prefecture. I stayed there without ever being named Prefect, for seven or eight years, where I did my work in such a way that Mr. Clemenceau picked me for a general government position in Madagascar. And since my fellow citizens of Marseille offered, two years later, to put me in office to represent them in the Senate, I accepted . . . I responded to the confidence they placed in me. And that's how, some time later, circumstances led Mr. PainlevÃ, as Head of the Government, to ask me to be Minister of the Interior. I was Minister of the Interior the whole time he was prime minister, not without difficulties on occasion in Paris, from the disruptive elements of the extreme Right who all too publicly demonstrated their hatred for republican institutions. And when that administration withdrew, I went back to my elected office.

Abraham Schrameck

As a member of the Senate, on the finance committee and the aviation committee, which enabled me to be aware of the situation in which we found ourselves, from the standpoint of our defense against potential attacks from Germany that we were already able to predict, we didn't shy away, in the Senate committees to which I belonged, from frequently calling the attention of the government to the insufficiency of its preparation in the presence of the . . . of this . . . in the presence . . . [long pause] . . . of the accumulation of the attack capabilities that Germany was already acquiring and which were already known to the parliamentary committees. We unfortunately were not always able to find, neither with the government nor even throughout the range of public opinion, the credit, the acceptance that our observations should have . . . [pause] . . . huh?

Abraham Schrameck

. . . justified, yes . . . [aside off mic: "not the right word, but no matter"]. And unfortunately, events demonstrated that we were still underestimating the truth. We never stopped pointing out in particular the truly excessively inferior state of our air power as compared to [that of] our hawkish neighbors. [long pause] As war broke out, we relied up to a certain point, not being able to do otherwise, on eye witness reports by the heads of our army. As the war broke out and the disaster took on excessive proportions, all those who, as I, belonged to the Jewish faith, could expect . . . that they would be the object at the hands of the conquerors . . . of persecutions that did not fail to follow. Nor could they expect, given the conditions under which MarÃchal PÃtain and the head of his government under Laval had taken power, that they would do anything at all to spare them from these persecutions. As for me, I didn't have to wait long. As early as September, I was sent away to Pellevoisin in administrative custody. The police commissioners . . . a police commissioner came to get me at my home in Marseille to take me to this institution where I found myself with other public figures and who had also attracted attention to themselves by the independence of their opinions, like Mandel, who unfortunately is gone . . . uh, by . . . because of agents working for Laval, like Marx Dormoy, another former Minister of the Interior, and like a few others . . . uh . . . [aside off mic: "I don't know how I started my sentence. I'll try to finish it . . . "]. I remained in that institution for several months. From there, I was sent, in the beginning of 1940 [prompt from someone off mic who corrects, saying "41"] Yes, in this . . . being watched. But continuously, uh . . . under the . . . uh . . . my mail was opened, I had limited visitation, and . . . I didn't . . . we were not able to leave this residence without government authorization. It is nevertheless true that when the Germans spoke again about having to open the demarcation line that they had accepted with the Armistice, I was going to leave this residence no matter what. I returned to my home in Marseille . . . from which they didn't want me to wander off too far. And when I would go from time to time to a neighboring dÃpartement [county], where the Gestapo would come to look for me, I could only avoid being arrested by them with the help of the good will and the devotion of certain municipal employees who warned me that the Gestapo was waiting for me. I was going home to Marseille, and there, because of our American friends, I was in a spot where my life was in danger, since when they bombed Marseille on May 27, all the windows of my house, the house in which I lived, exploded. The smoke permeated the house and I had to return to my personal pied-Ã-terre, up until the moment when I saw Moroccans, or Moroccan troops arriving, descending on the city, and who several days earlier had disembarked in the Mediterranean under orders from General de Lattre de Tassigny. Such were the Latin tribulations I experienced during this time of war, knowing . . . fortunately warned during the time I was in Marseille, knowing that they were looking for me, and not without suspecting the serious risks to which I would be exposed if by chance I fell into their hands. I have to say that [unintelligible] because of the way in which my fellow citizens of Marseille did what they could to avoid . . . to keep me from this extreme cruelty, coming to me even from high up in the government, letting me know that if need be, I would be able to hide, if I felt the situation warranted it, in the very Prefecture in which I had worked as head of the dÃpartement for a certain number of years, if I felt that staying there for several hours would shelter me from the search that was being done to find me. And, from various other parts, some political friends . . . met with one or two other friends who were . . . filled with emotion by the risk that we faced, persons whose names I hardly knew from way back, made themselves available to me to do what they could to facilitate my chances of staying alive.

Abraham Schrameck

That's enough. Did I answer your question?

David Boder

[In English] Yes. I'm thinking of something.

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] At that time, in Paris where I had an apartment, it goes without saying that the Germans made a clean sweep of the place. Nothing remained of all my things, not a bookshelf, or anything that once belonged to my parents, for more than a hundred years. Everything was taken, and I found myself deprived of any means of taking up or continuing my former life.

David Boder

[In English] [To interpreter] I want to know if there were many of your father's friends collaborating with Vichy and the Germans.

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] Political friends?

Abraham Schrameck

I can't think of any. They are very rare. There just aren't any. And here's why. It's because Mr. Laval, who had previously been in the Parliament, already did not have a very good reputation. He was already considered as, for quite a few years, as doing in Parliament whatever would be agreeable to Germany. He was remembered as having gone, in the last war, to . . . where was that?

Abraham Schrameck

. . . to Quintal to try to work out a peaceful solution in favor of the Germans, isn't that right? And each time that we had debates on foreign politics . . . when these debates took place in Parliament, he showed himself to be anti-British, anti-American, and pro-German. Consequently, we weren't very supportive of him. And he . . . I do believe that, if those in Parliament who put their faith in MarÃchal PÃtain in Vichy suspected that MarÃchal PÃtain, well aware of what Laval was, would continue nevertheless to entrust the government to him, well, they would not have voted as they had. As for me, I know members of parliament with very moderate politics who, during the short time I was in Vichy, went to see the MarÃchal and told him what they thought of Laval. They had reason to believe that, given the faith that the MarÃchal would have in what they said, that the MarÃchal would not trust Laval and then that he would get rid of him as quickly as he could. Instead of that, it seems that he let himself be completely . . . uh . . .

Abraham Schrameck

. . . guided, inspired by this evil genius, and . . . it is very true that this did not enable . . . that this separated many who knew the MarÃchal, from the government, from the MarÃchal himself, and from Vichy. Furthermore, what proves this, is that the MarÃchal believed [unintelligible] to advise Laval, who was nevertheless a capable politician, that it was in his best interest to create a sort of . . . advisory assembly within the Vichy government. He created it; he tried to fill it by recruiting from all parties a variety of public figures fairly representative of a large proportion of the two former chambers, the former National Assembly [Chamber of Deputies] and the former Senate. Well, right away such opposition arose against the measures that he himself was advocating that he didn't dare call the group to meet more than once. And the committees that he appointed didn't even meet and none of them honored the objectives that MarÃchal PÃtain proposed for their last [unintelligible].

David Boder

[In English] What I wanted to know is when France was split so to speak in two, to what extent were all [Schrameck interrupts with a sneeze] personally good or bad to each other? Now for instance, your father was in prison for three months. Where did your friends from before, that would have done something to get him out and not . . . [inaudible]? That's what I mean.

Louis Kahn

[In French] Professor Boder would like to know if, after France was divided into two zones, the French were themselves divided. And if, specifically, given the fact that you had been imprisoned, your friends turned away from you.

Abraham Schrameck

I cannot say that they turned away from me. But I can definitely say that for the most part, with a few interesting exceptions, that they were taking lots of precautions, and that if some of them came to see me, well, there were others who weren't that far away and who could have gone just a bit out of their way to come see how I was doing. Well, in any other time, they would have done so, and at that time, for their own safety, well, they didn't venture to do so. I admit that I have no right to be angry with them, because they would have been taking personal risks that it would have been pointless to take. And so those who gave me help during the last period I spent in Marseille unquestionably took a lot of risks. I was hiding in the homes of friends. If I had been found with these friends, it's not certain, and it is even possible that I was jeopardizing the hospitality that they were offering and that they themselves would have been subjected to measures, obviously for some of them, to which they maybe wouldn't normally have been exposed. They [unintelligible] however, you see, because it's thanks to them that I came away unharmed from all these tribulations. Well, there were some who were quite courageous. And a relatively large number of them.

David Boder

[In English] Well, Monsieur Schrameck, I did not understand everything you said, but you said it so interestingly that I think that the people in America and our students would listen to your story with very great interest. Would you tell me how old you are?

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] Well, I'm presently seventy-eight years old.

David Boder

[In English] Seventy-eight. Well, looks still like a young man.

Marcelle Kahn

When my father was in prison in Pellevoisin, his birthday was celebrated with a cake, his seventy-fourth birthday was celebrated with Marx Dormoy, with Mandel who has been killed.

Abraham Schrameck

[In French] The Administrator, the President of the Chamber, what was his name? Vincent Auriol?

Marcelle Kahn

Vincent Auriol.

David Boder

[In English] Well, it takes great courage to celebrate it.