David P. Boder Interviews Marcelle Kahn; August 21, 1946; Paris, France

var transcription = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] We have now at the microphone Mrs. Kahn, the wife of Admiral Kahn, in Paris, and she was present while her father and then her little son gave us the story, so clearly she would not exactly try to repeat it. We want to get some other moments. First of all, Mrs. Kahn, will you tell us in French what is your full name? And what education do you have?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Mon nom est Marcelle Schrameck, femme d'IngÃnieur GÃnÃral Louis Kahn. Pendant la derniÃre guerre, j'ai fait mes Ãtudes d'ingÃnieur des mines. Et j'ai travaillà dans des usines de produits chimiques Kuhlman pendant un certain temps avant mon mariage. Et depuis, j'ai travaillà un peu avec mon mari, je m'occupais de mes enfants . . .

David Boder

[In English] In what kind of mines did you work?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] J'ai travaillà vers l'Ecole des mines de St. Etienne. Nous descendions trÃs souvent dans les mines des centres de la France. Mais mon travail aprÃs, j'ai . . . je suis engagÃe dans les usines des produits chimiques Kuhlman.

David Boder

[In English] Now, will you be good enough to tell us, what happened to you after the Armistice was concluded?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] AprÃs la conclusion d'Armistice, nous nous . . . nous sommes partis, mes enfants et moi, en zone libre oà nous ne voulons pas avoir de contact avec les Allemands. Et nous avons vÃcu à Marseille, jusqu'à ce que les Allemands rouvrent l'Armistice en novembre â42. Mon mari Ãtait dÃjà parti pour l'Angleterre, je restais avec mes deux fils à Marseille. Et dÃs que les Allemands ont franchi la ligne, les Ãmeutes se sont produites, dans la Zone Sud. Il y a eu des attentats à Marseille, dÃs le mois de dÃcembre. Les Allemands avaient organisà un arbre de NoÃl dans un des grands hÃtels de Marseille, avec les, le consul . . . les consuls allemands. Il y a eu une bombe, c'Ãtait le 24 dÃcembre, le jour de NoÃl, il y a eu une bombe, la femme du consul allemand a eu les deux jambes coupÃes. Elle est morte quelques jours aprÃs, un enterrement en grande pompe. La circulation a Ãtà interrompue dans toutes les rues de Marseille. Et c'est à partir de ce moment qu'ont commencà les reprÃsailles sur les Marseillais. Naturellement, nous savions tous que la guerre n'Ãtait pas terminÃe, que c'Ãtait seulement un fait de guerre. Mais . . . à partir de ce moment, la vie est devenue extrÃmement difficile. Les gens Ãtaient arrÃtÃs dans les rues. Leurs papiers Ãtaient examinÃs et si les papiers n'Ãtait pas en bonne rÃgle, naturellement on Ãtait arrÃtà et dÃportÃ.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

C'est ainsi qu'un camarade de mon fils, un garÃon de seize ans, a Ãtà arrÃtà en descendant de la gare, ses parents n'ont plus eu des nouvelles de lui et qu'il est revenu peut-Ãtre un an aprÃs, et s'Ãtant Ãchappà d'un wagon qui l'emmenait en Allemagne en soulevant une . . . le plancher du wagon, il Ãtait arrivà à s'Ãvader, et un camarade . . . mais un camarade qui l'avait suivi a eu les jambes coupÃes dans le [?]. C'est à partir de ce moment-là que j'ai essayà de quitter Marseille. Mais mon . . . ma volontà n'est devenue dÃfinitive qu'au moment oà le Vieux . . . le moment oà les Allemands ont dÃtruit le Vieux Port. Les Allemands prÃtendaient que des . . . les terroristes, comme ils les appelaient, se cachaient en le Vieux Port. Ils ont essayà de faire sauter ces vieux quartiers dans lesquels il y avait Ãvidemment des ruelles et de . . . des terrains oà ils . . . qu'ils redoutaient beaucoup. LÃ, ce n'est.. nous . . . un jour . . . nous naturellement nous n'Ãtions pas avertis de ce qui se tramait. Et c'est un jour en descendant dans le centre de Marseille, nous habitions dans une rue de . . . assez ÃloignÃe du Vieux Port, en descendant dans le centre de Marseille, nous avons entendu la . . . la sonnerie d'alarme. Nous avons vu les gens se prÃcipiter hors de chez eux avec leurs maigres bagages, ou quelques-uns emportaient des enfants malades, et ils hissaient ce qu'ils pouvaient dans des charrettes à bras . . . ont Ãtà toujours arrÃtÃs et je n'ai su que ces jours-ci que cinq mille personnes parmi ces trente ou quarante milles qui ont dà Ãvacuer en un quart d'heure leurs logis . . . cinq milles de ces personnes ont Ãtà conduites et dÃportÃes en Allemagne. Ce jour-lÃ, nous avons vu arrÃter, on mettait des gens du . . . nous avons vu des gens hissÃs dans des voitures cellulaires. Nous avons vu de malheureuses femmes se tendre les bras et essayer d'accrocher aux barreaux. C'est un spectacle qui nous a fendu l'Ãme en pensant à ce que pouvait Ãvidemment arriver à mes enfants. Je n'ai qu'une idÃe, c'est de quitter Marseille.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

A ce moment-lÃ, nous sommes allÃs dans les Alpes aux environs de Grenoble. Mes enfants sont allÃs en pension en montagne, et à partir de ce moment, j'ai . . . à ce moment-lÃ, que j'ai entendu le message, ÂÂje suis arrivÃÂÂ, de mon mari, en Angleterre. RÃellement il avait mis pas mal de temps avant de pouvoir faire passer le message. C'est ce message . . . le message par lequel [il nous disait] qu'il nous attendait. Et à partir de ce moment, j'ai commencà mes recherches pour essayer de le rejoindre. Et j'avais naturellement pas mal de relations dans toute cette vieille existence. PrivilÃgiÃe, j'ai constamment eu des amis qui m'ont prÃvenue qu'il me . . . dÃjà quand j'Ãtais à Marseille et ils m'avaient dit que ce soir-lÃ, il y aura des perquisitions de votre quartier, allez coucher chez des amis. Cela m'Ãtait arrivà plusieurs fois. Mais naturellement, c'Ãtait extrÃmement dangereux pour ces amis. Et je suis trÃs . . . alors, à ce moment-lÃ, quand j'avais quittà Marseille, je prÃfÃrais avoir des cartes à un autre nom. Il a fallu des . . . que je cherche l'homme pour faire d'autres cartes. C'Ãtait assez difficile parce que la RÃsistance imprimait des cartes pour les travailleurs et pas pour les femmes et des enfants en gÃnÃral. Alors il Ãtait trÃs difficile de se procurer des cartes d'alimentation de femme et d'enfants. Et alors j'en ai . . . j'ai trouvà le meilleur accueil chez des gens de la RÃsistance que je connaissais absolument pas qui pourtant m'avaient donnà simplement un mot. On avait mÃme pas donnà le mot, on avait donnà leur nom, une adresse, et donc on Ãtait prÃsentà de la part d'un tel, et je ne savais mÃme pas le nom exact. Ce sont des gens qui m'ont reÃue, qui m'ont donnà les clÃs de leur maison, chez qui j'ai vÃcu pendant huit à dix jours, le temps qu'on me fabrique de fausses cartes. Je ne sortais pas parce que je n'avais pas de carte. J'avais peur à chaque instant d'Ãtre interpellÃe. Mais je suis restÃe chez eux huit jours, je restais chez eux huit jours, oà j'Ãtais nourrie, j'ai . . . on m'avait donnà leur meilleure chambre et les clÃs. A partir du moment oà j'ai eu ces fausses cartes, j'ai pu voyager.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

J'Ãtais avant tout à cÃtà de Perpignan, oà j'ai dà retrouver les guides qui avaient fait passer mon mari, mais malheureusement, ils Ãtaient tous . . . la plupart Ãtait arrÃtÃe et je n'ai pas pu retrouver leurs traces. Enfin j'en ai trouvà d'autres . . . lorsqu'ils me proposaient Ãvidemment de nous faire passer . . . mais à chaque fois que je leur parlais de mon plus jeune fils qui avait à ce moment-là l'Ãge . . . il n'avait que dix ans, ils refusaient Ãnergiquement de le faire passer en me disant "ce garÃon ne marchera pas jusqu'au bout, il ne pourrait pas passer dans la montagne, il nous fera prendre, etc." . . . Enfin, j'ai mis . . . j'ai pas mal de contacts avec des gens trÃs courageux, et qui m'ont dÃcouragÃe beaucoup, qu'ils me disaient de ne pas fuir, vous serez à l'abri . . . c'est une chose que je ne voulais pas faire, nous voulions partir retrouver mon mari et pour nous battre . . . battre avec notre pays, rester en contact avec notre pays. Et c'est, heu . . . un an aprÃs, seulement vers le mois d'octobre 1943, que nous avons dÃcidà devant toutes les difficultÃs de passer seuls. Devant la . . . l'Ãnergie de mon fils aÃnà qui a tout prÃparÃ, il avait choisi avec soin un itinÃraire, lequel il a choisi avec au moins sa boussole parce que c'est un instrument extrÃmement difficile à trouver en ce moment-lÃ. Nous avions trouvà des boussoles de Scout qui Ãtaient toutes plus ou moins bonnes. On en a essayà une grande quantità avant d'en trouver une qui indiquait vÃritablement le Nord. On avait ÃnormÃment . . . on avait beaucoup de peine à trouver des cartes d'Ãtat-major naturellement aussi, qui est . . . nous Ãtions . . . tout le monde se croyait surveillÃ, suivi naturellement, quand on allait acheter une carte de la frontiÃre espagnole. Il l'a fait . . . avec beaucoup d'Ãnergie des dÃcisions d'autant plus mÃritoires venant d'un garÃon qui avait à l'Ãpoque quinze ans. Et qui n'Ãtait, qui n'avait jamais fait de grands entraÃnements physiques, et c'est lui qui dans la montagne, nous a guidÃs, nous a tirÃs, poussÃs et nous a jamais perdus, simplement avec la boussole et la carte que nous n'osons pas sortir en vue du mauvais temps. Nous avons toujours Ãtà dans le droit chemin. Et nous pouvons dire que nous avons passà peut-Ãtre avec moins d'incidents qu'avec un passeur de profession, nous avons pris une route probablement plus aisÃe, plus facile. Et nous avons eu le courage peut-Ãtre de l'inconscience. Et nous avons franchi les PyrÃnÃes de Perpignan à Casa, en neuf jours, nous sommes arrivÃs de Perpignan à Casa en neuf jours, avec trois jours de prison en Espagne. Ce qui a Ãtà . . . ce qu'Ãtait [unintelligible] à Casablanca.

David Boder

[In English] [break in sound] How did you get out of prison? Did they give you free passage to Casablanca? [unintelligible]

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Euh, nous Ãtions, nous avons Ãtà pris dans un convoi de FranÃais, ils Ãvacuaient des FranÃais. Naturellement, nous ne sommes pas restÃs longtemps en prison en raison du fait que nous n'Ãtions pas des combattants. Une femme et des enfants de moins de 17 ans n'Ãtaient pas considÃrÃs comme une prise importante pour les Espagnols. Des hommes restaient longtemps en camps de concentration que nous ne connaissions pas.

David Boder

[In English] How old was your oldest boy then?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

My oldest boy . . . Pierre?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Oui, mon fils aÃnÃ, avait quinze ans et demi. Et il faut dire que sur toutes les fausses cartes, je l'avais rajeuni encore d'un an pour Ãtre plus tranquille. Alors mÃme les papiers qu'ont pris les Espagnols, nous avons fait les papiers franÃais-espagnol, il avait quatorze ans sur les papiers que nous avons pris en espagnol et ce qui fait que nous Ãtions donc garantis d'Ãtre des non-combattants.

David Boder

[In English] [unintelligible] Well, Madame Kahn, can you tell me then, how long were you crossing the Pyrenees? How long did it take you?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Bien, deux jours seulement. Nous avons marchà le premier jour cinq heures et le second jour six ou sept heures.

David Boder

[In English] And did you have things with you?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Nous n'avions absolument rien sur nous. Nous Ãtions nu tÃte, nous Ãtions comme des promeneurs pour ne pas attirer l'attention sur nous, et en passant nous avons dÃchirà nos chaussures qui n'Ãtaient pas trÃs solides, nos vÃtements. En Espagne, Ãvidemment nous avons vite Ãtà reconnus comme des passagers clandestins. Nous Ãtions en loques, nous n'avions rien à manger, nous nous Ãtions arrÃtÃs dans des fermes oà nous avait gentiment donnà du lait.

David Boder

[In English] And did the children manage to come through well and came through all right?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Les garÃons sont arrivÃs en trÃs bon Ãtat. [Boder interrupts] Bien sÃr qu'en arrivant, si bien que . . . nous avons pris avec plaisir que le premier dÃner qui nous a Ãtà offert par les carabiniers, avec l'argent qu'ils m'avaient pris.

David Boder

[In English] How many kilometers did you walk?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Eh bien, nous ne savions pas exactement. Nous ne savions pas exactement, parce que nous avions la carte du cÃtà franÃais mais les cartes d'Ãtat-major n'indiquent rien en delà de la frontiÃre, qui fait que nous n'avons jamais su le chemin exact que nous avons fait en Espagne, on a dà faire quarante à cinquante kilomÃtres.

David Boder

[In English] Uh huh.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Oui. Evidemment beaucoup moins que la plupart des guides ont fait faire.

David Boder

[In English] And were there a lot of Germans in Spain?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Or, en Espagne, nous n'avons pas vu d'Allemands, n'est-ce pas?

David Boder

Pas d'Allemands?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

Non, on n'en a pas vu. On a vu des policiers espagnols.

David Boder

[In English] Do you speak Spanish?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Non, pas du tout.

David Boder

[In English] But then on the border they spoke French with you.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Non, non, ils parlaient espagnol, nous avons . . . justement le premier jour oà nous avons Ãtà arrÃtÃs, il nous est tombà un Ãtat-major espagnol qui essayait de nous interroger. C'Ãtait un GÃnÃral qui me posait des questions en espagnol, comme je ne les comprenais pas, il y a renoncÃ. Pour Ãa que nous avons Ãtà raccompagnÃs une nuit à notre hÃtel oà nous avons encore couchà sous clà et le lendemain, on nous a emmenÃs à Barcelone, oà il y avait là des . . . oà on parlait franÃais.

David Boder

[In English] And when did you [both speaking at once] Where did you get the first notice from the Admiral? When did you hear from him?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Ah, nous avons reÃu dans le bateau qui nous a ramenÃs d'Espagne au Maroc, il y avait un . . . c'Ãtait un convoi organisà qui ramenait des FranÃais, il y avait un officier de la marine, un FranÃais. Je lui ai demandà s'il avait . . . s'il savait oà se trouvait IngÃnieur Kahn, IngÃnieur en Chef Kahn. Il m'a dit qu'il l'avait vu deux soirs avant à Alger. Il y avait à peu prÃs huit mois que je n'avais eu aucune nouvelle de mon mari.

David Boder

[In English] And how long were you in Africa before you returned to . . .

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Juste un an en Afrique. Juste un an. Nous sommes arrivÃs . . . le 22 octobre 1943 Ã Casa et je suis repartie d'Alger pour la France le 17 octobre 1944.

David Boder

[In English] Well, how did you find Paris when you came back?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Paris me paraissait magnifique! Bon, je n'ai jamais vu Paris avec les Allemands.

David Boder

[In English] Well, I thank you very much. How really good of you to let me spend the evening with you and to have these interesting reports from three generations. Now, I would like to have . . . recording ends abruptly

var english_translation = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] We have now at the microphone Mrs. Kahn, the wife of Admiral Kahn, in Paris, and she was present while her father and then her little son gave us the story, so clearly she would not exactly try to repeat it. We want to get some other moments. First of all, Mrs. Kahn, will you tell us in French what is your full name? And what education do you have?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] My name is Marcelle Schrameck, wife of Engineer General Louis Kahn. During the last war, I studied to be a mining engineer. And I worked in the Kuhlman chemical plants for a while before getting married. And since then, I worked a little with my husband, I was taking care of my children . . .

David Boder

[In English] In what kind of mines did you work?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] I worked around the Mining Engineering School in St. Etienne. We often used to go down into the mines in the French mining centers. But my work since then, I . . . I was employed by the Kuhlman chemical plants.

David Boder

[In English] Now, will you be good enough to tell us, what happened to you after the Armistice was concluded?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] After the Armistice was signed, we . . . we left, my children and I, to the free zone where we didn't want to have contact with the Germans. And we lived in Marseille, until the Germans reopened the Armistice in November of '42. My husband had already left for England. I was staying with my two sons in Marseille. And as soon as the Germans crossed the line, riots broke out in the Southern Zone. There were attacks in Marseille, as early as the month of December. The Germans had organized a Christmas tree [lighting] in one of the big hotels in Marseille, with the Consul . . . the German consuls. There was a bomb. It was on December 24th, Christmas Day. There was a bomb and the wife of the German Consul lost both of her legs. She died several days later, and there was an elaborate funeral. Traffic was stopped in all the streets of Marseille. And it was afterwards that there began to be acts of retaliation against the people of Marseille. Naturally, we all knew that the war wasn't over, that [the bomb] was only an act of war. But . . . from that time on, life became extremely difficult. People were stopped in the streets. Their papers were examined and if their papers were not in order, naturally they were arrested and deported.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

That's how one of my son's friends, a sixteen year old boy, was arrested while coming out of the train station. His parents didn't have any news of what happened to him and he returned maybe a year later, by escaping from a train car that was taking him to Germany. He escaped by pulling up a plank in the floor of the car . . . but a friend who was following him lost his legs during [their escape?] From that time on, I tried to leave Marseille. But my . . . determination . . . I was only definitively resolved to leave when the Old . . . when the Germans destroyed the Vieux Port. The Germans claimed that . . . "terrorists", as they called them, were hiding in the Vieux Port. They tried to blow up those old neighborhoods, which were obviously full of little winding streets and . . . pieces of land where . . . that [the Germans] greatly dreaded [they couldn't control]. There . . . it wasn't . . . we . . . one day . . . we were not told what they were plotting. And then one day, while going into central Marseille, we lived on a street . . . rather distant from the Vieux Port . . . while going into central Marseille, we heard the alarm go off. We saw people hastily leaving their homes with their meager baggage, or some were carrying sick children, and were throwing whatever they could onto pushcarts . . . and were still arrested and I only learned recently that five thousand people out of the thirty or forty thousand who had only fifteen minutes to evacuate their homes . . . five thousand of these people were taken and deported to Germany. On that day, we saw arrests, they were putting people . . . we saw people being loaded in paddy wagons. We saw these poor women holding out their arms and trying to hang on to the bars. Seeing these things tore my heart apart, thinking of what could obviously happen to my children. I had only one thing on my mind: to leave Marseille.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

So we went in the Alps near Grenoble. My children were in boarding school in the mountains, and that was when . . . that was when I heard the message: "I've arrived" from my husband in England. In reality, it took him quite a while before he could get the message through. It was this message . . . his message to tell us that he was waiting for us. After that, I started looking for a way to catch up with him. And I of course had a lot of acquaintances from way back. I was privileged, constantly warned by friends that they . . . while I was still in Marseille, and they had told me that on that evening my neighborhood was going to be searched, go spend the night at the home of some friends. This happened to me several times. But naturally, this was extremely dangerous for these friends. And I am very . . . well, at that time, when I left Marseille, I preferred to have ID cards under another name. I had to . . . find someone to make new ID cards. It was rather difficult because the Resistance printed cards for workers and not for women and children, generally speaking. So it was very difficult to obtain food vouchers for women and children. And so I . . . I found I had the best reception from people from the Resistance whom I didn't know from Adam but simply sent "a word" [Translator's note: could mean "a note" or perhaps a "pass word"?]. In fact, I didn't even get the word from them, I was just given a name and an address, and that so-and-so knew me, I wasn't told the exact name. These people took me in, gave me the keys to their house, where I lived for eight to ten days, long enough to produce false ID cards for me. I didn't go out of the house because I didn't have an ID. I was afraid every second of being stopped in the street. But I stayed in their home for eight days, I stayed at their home for eight days, where I was fed, I . . . they gave me their best room and the keys. Once I had my false ID cards, I could travel.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

I started out near Perpignan, where I had to find the guides that had helped my husband to cross, but unfortunately, they were all . . . most of them had been arrested and I couldn't find any trace of them. Finally I found others . . . When we talked about getting us out of the country . . . but each time I spoke of my youngest son who was . . . he was only ten at the time, they energetically opposed taking him, saying "this boy won't walk all the way, he won't be able to make it through the mountains, he'll get us caught, etc . . ." Finally, I put . . . I had contacts with quite a few really courageous people who really tried to talk me out of it, told me not to go, you'll be protected . . . that's something I didn't want to do. We wanted to leave to find my husband and to fight . . . fight with our country, stay in contact with our country. And it was . . . um, one year later, only around the month of October 1943, that we decided, despite all the difficulties, to cross the border alone. With the . . . energy of my eldest son who prepared everything, he chose our itinerary carefully, using a compass which was an extremely difficult instrument to find at that time. We had found a bunch of Boy Scout compasses that were all more or less usable. We tried out a great many of them before finding one that truly pointed North. We had an enormous amount of trouble to also find road maps, of course, which is . . . we were . . . everyone believed they were being watched, followed, when we went to purchase a map of the Spanish border. He [my son] made these decisions with a lot of drive, which were even more remarkable coming from a boy who was fifteen at the time. And who had never had any real physical training, and it was he who guided us, dragged us along, pushed us through the mountains and never got us lost, using only a compass and the map that we didn't dare take out because of the bad weather. We were always on the right path. And we could say that we crossed the border with probably fewer incidents than if we had gone with a professional smuggler. We took a route that was probably easier, more accessible. And we were courageous possibly because we were oblivious. And we crossed the Pyrenees from Perpignan to Casa [Casablanca] in nine days. We arrived from Perpignan to Casa in nine days, with three days of imprisonment in Spain. Which was . . . [unintelligible] in Casablanca.

David Boder

[In English] [break in sound] How did you get out of prison? Did they give you free passage to Casablanca? [unintelligible]

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Uh, we were, we were taken into a convoy of French. They were evacuating the French. Of course, we didn't stay in prison long because we weren't soldiers. A woman and children under 17 were not considered a significant arrest for the Spanish. The men spent a long time in concentration camps that we hadn't experienced.

David Boder

[In English] How old was your oldest boy then?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

My oldest boy . . . . Pierre?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Yes, my oldest son was fifteen and a half. And I should add that on all the false ID cards, I subtracted a year from his age to be more secure. And even the papers that the Spanish took, we did the papers in French and Spanish. He was fourteen on the papers we had done in Spanish and that was how we were guaranteed that we were not soldiers.

David Boder

[In English] [unintelligible] Well, Madame Kahn, can you tell me then, how long were you crossing the Pyrenees? How long did it take you?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Well, only two days. We walked five hours the first day and six or seven the second day.

David Boder

[In English] And did you have things with you?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] We had absolutely nothing with us. We didn't have hats, we tried to look like hikers so that we wouldn't draw attention to ourselves. And in crossing the mountains, we ripped up our shoes which weren't very sturdy, and our clothes. In Spain, we were obviously recognized very quickly as illegal travelers. We were in rags, we had nothing to eat. We stopped at some farms where they were very nice and gave us some milk.

David Boder

[In English] And did the children manage to come through well and came through all right?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] The boys arrived in very good shape. [Boder interrupts.] Of course, when we arrived, it happened that . . . We had the pleasure of being served our first dinner to which we were treated by the Customs Officers, who paid for it with the money they took off of me.

David Boder

[In English] How many kilometers did you walk?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Well, we didn't know for sure. We didn't know for sure because we had a map for the French side of the border but the road maps didn't show anything beyond the border, which meant that we didn't know exactly which route we had taken in Spain. We probably did forty to fifty kilometers.

David Boder

[In English] Uh huh.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Yes. Obviously much less than most of the guides made people travel.

David Boder

[In English] And were there a lot of Germans in Spain?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] In Spain, we didn't see any Germans, isn't that so?

David Boder

No Germans?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

No, we didn't see any. We saw Spanish police officers.

David Boder

[In English] Do you speak Spanish?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

No, not at all.

David Boder

But then on the border they spoke French with you.

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] No, no, they spoke Spanish. We had . . . as a matter of fact, the first day we were arrested, we were faced with a Spanish staff officer who tried to interrogate us. He was a General who asked me questions in Spanish and since I didn't understand, he gave up. For that reason, we were taken to our hotel for a night where we had to sleep under lock and key and the next day, they took us to Barcelona, where there were . . . where they spoke French.

David Boder

[In English] And when did you [both speaking at once] Where did you get the first notice from the Admiral? When did you hear from him?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Ah, on board the boat that took us from Spain to Morocco, we received . . . there was a . . . it was a convoy organized to collect the French. There was an officer who was in the navy, a Frenchman. I asked him if he had . . . if he know where Engineer Kahn, Chief Engineer Kahn was. He said he had seen him two evenings earlier in Algiers. It had been about eight months that I hadn't had any news from my husband.

David Boder

[In English] And how long were you in Africa before you returned to . . .

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Just one year in Africa. One year exactly. We arrived . . . . on October 22, 1943 in Casa [Casablanca] and I left Algiers for France on October 17, 1944.

David Boder

[In English] Well, how did you find Paris when you came back?

Anne Marcelle Kahn

[In French] Paris looked magnificent to me! But, I had never seen Paris under the Germans.

David Boder

[In English] Well, I thank you very much. How really good of you to let me spend the evening with you and to have these interesting reports from three generations. Now, I would like to have . . . [recording ends abruptly]