David P. Boder Interviews Vladus Lukosevicius; September 21, 1946; München, Germany

var transcription = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] Lohengrinstrasse, the Baltic camp in Munich, September the 21st, 1946. We have on the spool 4 minutes left, but we are going to start with the interview of Mr. Vladus Lukosevicius, [stammers], a Lithuanian. Lithuanian?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Jа.

David Boder

[stammers] ah, who will talk to us in Russian.

David Boder

[In Russian] Аг, сколько вам лет, господин Лукошевичус?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Аг, 13, 13.го года. [1-2 words too weak].

David Boder

Но, сколько вам лет теперь?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Мне сейчас 33 года.

David Boder

33 года . . . Ну, вот господин Лукошевичус говорите [здесь?] в этом направлении и прямо сюда в обе стороны . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1 weak].

David Boder

[В эту и в эту?]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да.

David Boder

Скажите нам где вы были когда русские пришли в Литванию?

Vladus Lukosevicius

В 39.ом году?

David Boder

Да. [Жизнь?].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Как я [too weak].

David Boder

Нет, где ВЫ были когда русские пришли в Литванию.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Когда русские пришли в Литванию, так я был тогда . . . я был в польской армии [я, в нашей?], наша страна была [1 weak] область под . . . Польшей.

David Boder

О, вы были в Польше.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да. Я тогда в польской армии был [и тут?] в Германию в плену . . .

David Boder

Ага.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . когда [2-3 too weak].

David Boder

[А тогда?], значит тогда мне скажите, где вы были когда война началась? И расскажите мне все.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Когда началась война в 39.ом году?

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Когда, в 39.ом году, когда началась война, то я был 24.го августа я до польской армии мобилизован.

David Boder

Так . . . Ну, [подождите?] делайте так. Ег, что вы считаете началась война когда немцы пришли в Польшу или когда?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я считаю началась война в 39.ом году.

David Boder

Это когда что было?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Когда немцы напали на Польшу.

David Boder

Когда немцы о . . . напали на Польшу?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да.

David Boder

Они . . . Хорошо, [значит ни что?]. Так, ладно. И вы были где?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я тогда был в польской армию [взятый?]

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Но и так [1-2 weak] [сентября?] началась война и я был в [1-2 weak/garbled] 13.го сентября попался в Германию в плен и был выезжен в Западнюю Пруссиию.

David Boder

Вы попали в плен . . .

David Boder

. . . и вы были [так?] русского . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Garbled and blocked by Boder]

David Boder

Нет, польского в плен [2-3 garbled and blocked, both speaking at once while Boder tries to correct what he himself is saying.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . в Западней Пруссии в Росенберг. Крайс [kreis] это было . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . и Рисенбург [Riesenburg] лагерь.

David Boder

Так. Теперь вы мне все расскажите подробно. Как это вы попали в плен, как вас окружили? Все это расскажите. У нас есть [время?] . . . Ну?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, я . . . значит, ну все города уже [немцы заняли от нас?], около Седлец [Siedlce] города 3 километра от города [Седлец?] взяли в плен.

David Boder

Где были ваши офицеры?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Офицеров [у нас не пытал?] убрали и уже с нами не были.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Попадание?] [1-2 garbled] не было. Так, нас первый раз разбили немецкие танки под Варшавой, [недалеко от?] Варшавы, местечка там . . . [город?] [3-4 garbled].

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, так держали так тогда уже . . .

David Boder

[1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Там [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

Не [хватил?] все?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Не, не . . . [не держали?] только [unknown number of words garbled] [и может?] было держаться против Немцов [и тогда уже?] . . .

David Boder

[2-3 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [держали?]

David Boder

А вы как остались . . . [солдат?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

У нас вдруг потом в лесу [1-2 garbled].

David Boder

Сколько . . . человек?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нас 17 там [в одном месте?] [fades, weak and garbled].

David Boder

Так. Вот, значит вы [1-2 garbled] полк разбился, [расстрелялся?].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так.

David Boder

И вас в лесу было 17 человек.

Vladus Lukosevicius

17 в одной группке и мы хотели перейти по [1-2 garbled] большую дорогу [в шашку?] . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

и [на дорогу?] мимо ехали немцы на [1-2 garbled] другой [sic] помыкали к нам, чтобы мы подошли к ним. Как подошли, так взяли и погнали в местечко Седлец на [2-3 garbled/weak].

David Boder

А у вас было оружие [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Было . . . [оружие?] [1-2 weak]

David Boder

Так. Они что [говорили?] вам? Руки поднять вверх?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, когда [chuckles] [1 garbled] сказали "руки вверх," да . . .

David Boder

Да,

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . и подняли руки.

David Boder

Ну, расскажите подробно. Ну, хорошо. Вас повели в небольшой городок и что?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда нас вечер был [в это совсем?] [fades/garbled].

David Boder

[1-2 garbled]

Vladus Lukosevicius

В сарай догнали, но все нам сказали [1 garbled] там кругом полно было немцев и [fades].

David Boder

Так.

David Boder

[In English] This concludes Spool 144. We are going to change over to Spool 145 with a report of Mr. Vladus Lukosevicius, ah, in MÃnchen, September the 21st, 1946, in a Baltic camp, in a camp for displaced Baltic people of Estonia, Lithuania and . . . hmm, Latvia. Illinois Institute of Technology wire recording.

David Boder

September the 21st, 1946, Munich, Germany, at Lohengrinstrasse, the camp for Baltic displaced persons. Lukosevicius, Mr. Vladus Lukosevicius in Russian is continuing his story.

David Boder

[In Russian] Значит вас 17 человек взяли в плен . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

Взяли.

David Boder

. . . и куда вас поместили и что с вами сделали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Они нас поместили сразу в сарай [одно?] где и немцев полно было [Sounds as if he is in a tin can. 1 garbled] [там ночи на дворе?] полно было [2-3 weak/garbled]. [За утром?] нас догнали в тюрьму. Большая тюрьма была в Седлце, [в городе?]. Так, в тюрьме там нас уже собрали еще 2-3 дня там держали нас, собрались около 4,000 [уже в плен?] [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, там [в барах дали?] кушать [на день?] хлеба там на 5 человек одну [булочку?]. После, нас гнали пешком 4,000 людей, так гнали, гнали аж [ну таких?] 170 километров. По, по 40 километров [за день?] [1-2 garbled]. Кушать ничего не давали [здоровы?].

David Boder

Ну, дальше.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Long pause, then both speak at once, all garbled] Да. Погнали . . .

David Boder

[Blocked by above] Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

на прусскую границу в город [Гракбова?], станция [Грабова?]. Тогда согнали по 70 человек в один крытый вагон, товарный вагон по 70 людей.

David Boder

Tak. А как вы знали, что 70?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, тогда полно было так, могли сосчитать.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Стоять, посидеть не было . . . места.

David Boder

Так . . . Ну?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Тогда повезли нас [через одну часть?] Пруссию, [1-2 garbled] окна закрыты, где мы не знали самые, целый день [везли?] после остановил нас в Рисенбургу городе.

David Boder

Только пленные были?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Пленные, только пленные были.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Тогда нас там уже в Рисенбурге было 18,000.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, стали на дворе и не под крышей, это всем холодно было, то было [под?] конец Сентября совсем.

David Boder

Да. Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, после Немцы приезжали в Больших [1-2 garbled - probable name] [из?] фабрики и забирали по несколько человек на фабрики Большие [1 garbled, probable name], так нас 30 человек отсчитали, по . . . погнали в баню, дезинфекцию дали и уколы дали и тогда нас . . .

David Boder

Уколы значит про . . . против болезней?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Против болезней какой-то.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, после повезли от Большой [1 garbled, possibly name. Sounds like Одноименья], которой звался тиргард.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И там мы работали [полные работы?].

David Boder

Полевые работы?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да, полевые работы.

David Boder

Какой месяц этот был?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Это было от Рисенбурга 13 километров.

David Boder

Я говорю, что [который?] месяц этот был? [Когда это было?]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, [под?] конец сентября было.

David Boder

Так . . . И что вы делали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Собирали бураки, [??сукровые??] копали и картошку.

David Boder

Так. А кушать давали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Кушать тогда уже давали тоже на 5 человек, одну булку хлеба и там супу давали в обед. [Blocked by Boder].

David Boder

А эти бураки можно было кушать?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Бураки тоже [пробовали?] кушать. [Unknown number garbled.]

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled]

David Boder

Ну?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда мы, я там жил 3 месяца. И на там литовском, литовской национальности было [польской армии?], в этом месте нас было 11 человек.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, мы как пожили там уже 3 месяца . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . Так, задумали убежать.

David Boder

Сколько вас задумали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

5 человек.

David Boder

Гмм-мм. И куда [уйти уже?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Домой. Домой.

David Boder

Куда? В Литванию?

Vladus Lukosevicius

В Литванию, да.

David Boder

А там-же немцы были.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Не у нас там были тогда, не было немцев.

David Boder

А кто был?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Были большевики.

David Boder

О! Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, задумали убежать и тогда мы 11.го аг, ноября ночью отвинтили [граты?] . . . хорошо [1-2 garbled] окна.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Там сваривали ключ французский в кузнице . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . и [украли?] через окно. Тогда 3 дня и 3 ночи [считали, что?] в Западную [Blocked by Boder].

David Boder

А другие не ожидали, [что?] [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Другие спали ночью. Не слышали, которые слышали, так нам были [уже?] . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . хорошие товарищи [laughs] так и они ничего не [сказали?].

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Но?] немцы в другой комнате, которые нас посматривали, были.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Но, окна были решетками и [двери?] на штабом, [это могло заключенном?] . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [так конечно?].

David Boder

Так . . . Ну?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Мы [удрали?] так 3 дня и 3 ночи через Пруссию, пока на польскую территорию вышли так ничего не имели кушать. [До?] военной одежи [нигде?] нельзя было показываться немцы.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И на дороге просить щи, только по ветру [ночам?].

David Boder

У вас не было никаких знаков на одеже, что вы пленные?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так [как?] наша одежа была вся польская.

David Boder

Ага.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Военная одежа.

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, мы не показывалися в день. Мы шли только ночам не до дороги, а через поля, а через леса прямо.

David Boder

Так. 5 человек.

Vladus Lukosevicius

5 человек.

David Boder

Так. И что кушали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, 3 дня ничего не кушали.

David Boder

Ну [blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Но больше не было?]

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

С собой, что [взяли?] картошки там, [сырье?] немножко, как мы думали убежать, так еще в этом мнении взяли себе там пшенного хлеба немножко, а мы по дороге 3 дня ничего [нигде не достали, полный день?] не могли никого спрашивать. [По-германски?] на что говорить не умели, и другое, что одежа военная.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, мы шли на [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

[Blocked]. Пище конечно было?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Пище и воды?] так можно было [Blocked by Boder]

David Boder

Ну, что-же нибудь, что-нибудь да кушали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, один день кушали что с собой имели.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Взяли [то в карманы?], ничего не было так и взять.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

А после 2 дня ничего не кушали.

David Boder

Ага.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И так я [и что же?] не рады [были?], что удрали. [Хотели бы, что?] [unknown number of words garbled] тоже.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, вышли на польскую территорию уже на помо-, [поможет?] там.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Тогда уже нам люди помогали, [тогда уже?] хорошо мы [жили?].

David Boder

Так. [Blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked by Boder]

David Boder

На, [по?] польской территории, [это была?] [1 garbled] уже немцами?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Немцы были в деревнях, [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Так. Но [в?] Польше поляки помогали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Поляки [1-2 garbled] очень хорошие [sic] помогали. Ночам по [штукой?] ночью, да, [спросишь нет немцев в этой деревни?] и они откажут, что нет немцев в [этой деревню?], тогда зайдем в комнату ночью и дают нам кушать, и на дорогу тогда уже было хорошо.

David Boder

Так. Ну . . . И куда вы [попали?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, ну так. Добирались [stammers] до советской границы, где была уже это, аг, советская - немецкая граница. [Польша?] была разделена.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, мы . . . дошли аж до, река идет Нарва такая.

David Boder

Да. Нарва?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нарвы . . . Нарев.

David Boder

Нарев. Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нарева.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нарева.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, [interrupted by Boder]

David Boder

[Подождите?], приток [Нева?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Не Невы, Вислы.

David Boder

Приток Вислы на Неву.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked by Boder] Нарва.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда мы в этой, в этой, там на [мостах?] была стража.

David Boder

Русская!

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет, нет, еще немецкая.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, мы через мост боялись идти, надо нам было переплыть реку Нарву [he continues to call it the Narva. It is the Narev.] Эта река Нарва [есть?] широкая довольно.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, в эт- [stops] аг, в деревине при Нарве полно было немцев.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, мы [отдельно?] решали там в [1-2 garbled], смотрели все [1-2 garbled] [немцы нас?] в ночи как уже [стремило?] так в этой деревне рыбаки жили, там были лодки.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Лодки. Так, мы в ночи [как стремило?] пошли в деревню, воровали лодку одну, [чтобы начали? [3-4 garbled] реки. Но, малая речка, которая проходила деревню к Нарве была замерз льдом уже, а большая река не была замерз. Тогда мы [принесли эту?] лодку и [съели троек?] [stammers] в лодку переплыть через реку и на- набрали [полнo льды?]. Потом опять вытащена [дырок?] в воду эту [1-2 garbled] и съели троек, переплыли через реку в другую сторону.

David Boder

А двое остались?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Двое остались. Один тогда вернулся, опять эти взял . . .

David Boder

Ну, так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . и перебрались через реку.

David Boder

И немцы никто [sic] не заметили.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Немцы не заметили.

David Boder

И русские не заметили?

Vladus Lukosevicius

А русские еще дальше, еще до русской границы было таких, ну . . .

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . километров может 20 еще.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

До этой рекой [sic]. Ну тогда, как перешли счастливо, перебрались эту реку и так незаметно перешли в совсем советскую границу совсем незаметно, не знали в этом направлении [1-2 garbled] кто нас на границе не задержал.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Настолько задержали, уже 15 километров за границы [2-3 garbled] городе . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . там советский патруль.

David Boder

Так. Ну . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, очень хорошо с нами обходились и мы не думали, что там есть [кто зашли, поступали?] в окно, Думали, что хозяинa, что проспать через день и через ночь. [Желали?], что в день будем спать. Ну вот, [отказались?], что солдаты русские там [около 40 их спал?]. Ну, это не нас [1 garbled] [салями?] дали [2-3 garbled], хлеба дали, все, ну [stammers/2-3 garbled] делали, [не имели?] оружия такого и хорошо как с товарищами проспали мы с ними.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну тогда, на другой день, утром, уже [они?] нас [повели?] там [sic] в свою, с свою комендатуру. Расспрашивали как что [с путами?] какие, мы по-русски почти все могли говорить неплохо. Ну, так, они нас пустили домой ехать на свою родину где, где я жил.

David Boder

И [в [безверне?]?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Виленская область [где я?] жил там. Ну, пустили так мы тогда . . .

David Boder

Громче.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . тогда уже поездом приехали.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 weak/garbled] станцию [в Лынтупы?] и там [sic] пошел пешком уже домой. Ну, и все время ничего [было живо?].

David Boder

Немножко громче. [Boder must believe Lukosevicius is not speaking loudly enough, but he is almost too loud.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да. Все время жил при советской власти, но работал хозяйственным, а как . . . началась [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

[Вы что, крестьянин были?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да, [крестьянин?] . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . как хозяин. Ну, жил все время как в 41.ом году началась война

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Тогда пришли немцы.

David Boder

А вас не взяли солдаты в плен?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Русские?

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Не взяли, не, не успели. Не было время, когда [это очень скорой?] [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

Так. Вот, немцы пришли.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да. Тогда пришли немцы. Как немцы пришли, ну тогда тоже я как [хозяйственный, ну так и хозяйственный?] [ничего же такого?]. Но только в случае могу такое рассказать уже в 42.ом году.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, в 42.ом году и . . . как у, у нас уже были [1-2 garbled] в [?кипиц??] [комисары?] и были это [крестьян?] [3-4 garbled], ну так, в городе Лынтупах, в Лынтупах горо(д), местечка небольшая очень. [2-3 garbled] местечка. Так, там было заказано, что немцы приедут лошадей забирать с телегами в Лынтупах местечку. Ну так, утром рано это было 42.го года, 20.го мая . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . Свенчанский kreislandwirtschaftsfuehrer Иосиф Бек и его заместитель [?Вальтер Груль??] ехали автомобилем в Лынтупы [1 garbled] лошадей [1 garbled] [отбирать?], и 4 километра не доезжая Лынтуп город местечка, ну, какие-то партизаны убили этих немцев.

David Boder

Бека?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Бека и [?Груля??] [а то?] еще одного [какого?] лейтенанта и там . . .

David Boder

[?Груль??] [это?] литовец был?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет. [?Груль??] был тоже это, [Вальтер?] [?Груль??] был заместитель [sic] kreislandwirtschaftsfuehrer . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И один капитан какой германский и шофер и переводчица Ракаускайте [Rakauskaite].

David Boder

Ну.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, так, этих всех убили.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Только эта переводчица жива осталась, а шофер не знаю [как он?].

David Boder

Ну.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда за 2 часа эт-, от, по этому случаю, после этого случая во время 2.ух часов [с нем с этого?] с Вильна . . .

David Boder

Ну.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . приехали эсс-эсс [?сихерхайтельный??] отряд . . . [Both Bek's job function and this word appear to be German pronounced as Russian words. In this case, from the German "sicherheit," "security."]

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . и окружил всю деревню 4 километра, в радиусе 4.ех километров. И всех мужчин от таких 18 лет, если 16 лет был [1 garbled] не мало [взрослом?] мужчина [все?] забирали. До 60 лет, до 55 так, женщины не забирали. Ну так, люди не знали ничего. Думали, что это будут, ну, помогать искать этих партизан, [что?] это сделал.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Но, они [1-2 garbled]. Всех, гмм, людей собрали и я [пытался?] ех-, ехал с Лынтуп города . . .

David Boder

Гм-ммм.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . и [в моем?] [?карманчике??] и меня [я к на трупе где эти?] люди стоят, один в рубашке, другой без фуражки, (1 garbled], которые стоят и что-то немцы кругом с винтовками, [на?] [2-3 garbled] винтовка кругом ходят не(мцы). Один немец [вот получился?] от этой [компании?] и зовет меня, чтобы я подходил к ним. Я еще сразу [и мне хотелся?]. Он подставил [фривольно?] и "ходи сюда." Ну, я подошел и показал мне где [1-2 garbled] стоять. Я по-германски [sic] [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

[Blocked/garbled] стоять?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Где стоят люди. Уже около 60 мужчин уже стоят . . .

David Boder

Отдельно?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Отдельно, и а кругом их ход-, ходят немцы с винтовками . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . на подготовке. Ну, я тогда если не хотелось [эти?] немцы [захватил меня?] [5-6 garbled] сказал где там стоить. Я стою, ну из, я хотел спрашивать этих людей, чего [2-3 garbled] "кто вас [перегнал?]," а не [2-3 garbled], чтобы я ничего не говорил.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну тогда, за каких . . . еще полчаса перегнали больше людей, больше мужчин перегнали еще собранны с других деревней. Уже может было около 200, а так не могло хорошо по ним [было указать сам рассматриваться?] все от страху. Ну, и тогда уже нас с этого [?руманщки??] [моем?] [1 garbled] через [1 garbled] деревню в Лынтупы. Так, мы думали что допрос какой будет. [Будет кого-нибудь?] спрашивать, что-ли как погнали и тогда повернули на [Баранное?] поле, при лесе там есть могильник такой, и там была [калюши?] провода кругом [?городина??]. Догнали и остановили и сказали по тре-, [трех вот?] идти уже вперед. Трех вперед. [По трех так?] поставили, а там уже лежали с пулеметами и с винтовками немецкие эсс-эсс солдаты и стали стрелять. От [первой?] [1-2 garbled] [вскричать?] [1garbled] 3.ья и 4.ья, все уже стали креститься и молиться. Там один другого [1 garbled] отец с сыном и брат с братом там стал видеть, что же [нет был уже?] раньше так [прошли?] деревню. Так, каждую деревню по одном [повезли немцы?]. [1 garbled] [вошли в?] деревню [одну?] [2-3 garbled] компании [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

И вас?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[2 garbled]. "Ходите вот сюда. Ходите." [Ну тот еще приносит тренировку?]. Тот человек не знает [на что и как?] [Unknown number of garbled words] [повезли одного уже. Каждую деревню по одном повесили?].

David Boder

И сказали за что они [1-2 garbled]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ничего, ничего, не сказали ничего. Тогда, ну, стали стрелять так [1-2 garbled] [по трех они?] держались [все по трех?]. [После?] [1-2 garbled] [таких?] может уже пя . . . [stops, corrects] около 50 мужчин было убитых,

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так все, один нашелся такой [1-2 garbled] деревни [?Жиромска??] [такой?]. Так, тот хватил [1 garbled], подскочил на пулеметчиков немцев, [и успел?] пулемет отбирать. Так, в это время счастья была некоторые удрать. [Как он боролся?] с этими [pauses/interrupted by Boder]

David Boder

[1-2 garbled] один пулемет был?

Vladus Lukosevicius

С одной стороны пулемет был, с другой там я не мог посчитать [3-4 garbled] [200?]. [2-3 garbled] не в полной памяти, все [не был?] . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . в полной памяти были.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] [крестились?] и никто не знал, что делать.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, кругом стоять с автоматами и штыки на винтовках кругом, а тут, [?войнец??] [1-2 garbled] стреляют.

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, как он боролся этот такой [1-2 garbled] был мужчина, боролся с пулеметчиком [unsure of grammatical ending here] этом, так больше немцев подскочили и [с штыками его атаковали?], а я все-таки прошел каких может быть полминуты и в это время удалось нам таких может около 20 человек удрать.

David Boder

Куда [бежали?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

В лес.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Бежали?], ничего не помню [где и что, на?] [2-3 garbled] на, на этих, которые [1-2 blocked by Boder] . . .

David Boder

[Blocked by Lukosevicius, above].

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . и [они держали?] убитые и так прямо в лесы и [1-2 garbled] [и так нужен?], ничего даже не помню как, как, как осталось. А там стрельба была долга и там около 400 мужчин стал убитых [на тот-же день?] и доконченных. Ну, тогда на другой день . . .

David Boder

Все литовцы были?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Были [словаки, и тоже были?] белорусы там.

David Boder

Так. Евреи были?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Евреев не было.

David Boder

Нет. [Blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] евреев [они?] уже так отдельно [2-3 garbled] [по?] деревнях [вот где-то равна поле?], вот на поле [1 garbled] человек, пришли немцы [ходи сюда?]. Тот ничего не знает, [отставил лошадь?] [1-2 garbled]. Тут подошел в [1 garbled] не пускать, "сходи с нами." И пошел и пошел, так вот человек аг, сидел в комнате, [2-3 garbled] "ходи сюда." Друго . . . Другой [еще не знали?], увидел, что все люди [ходят днем?] пошел там, как ушел [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Да. [Кто у вас?]? [Both speaking at once. All garbled.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [garbled] пошел посмотреть. И все. И так убили . . . Ну, тогда на другой день и [с вечером?] [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Ну, как вы убежали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я в лес убежал. Это, я так в [3-4 garbled] деревни каких 4 километра [1-2 garbled].

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, я убежал и [stammers] и сам ничего не помню как, что . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . пока по памяти пришел. Ну, тогда [считался?] дому уже был.

David Boder

Домой пришел?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Домой пришел.

David Boder

Так. А вы [2-3 garbled] записали [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Они не записали ничего никак. Вот, [взяли?] [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

Это значит, что вы были [blocked by Lukosevicius].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет, не могли [знать?] ничего.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И ничего [не?] искали и ничего [1-2 garbled/too weak]. Вот, взяли такой [избыли, надо устроиться?] все. Ну, тогда они доканчивали людей так, которые оставившие живые, так вот другой [полулесы?] и живые и здоровые, а неживые [была?], ну, от [2-3 garbled]. [Tак о́н/Tаком?], так, лежал, как немцы ушли. Доканчивали этих, которые еще живые. В голову стреляли со взрывными пульками.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, так . . . одному другому там [дальше?] 300 [1-2 garbled] может 3 человека так [отставить а по трупами?] [2-3 garbled]. [Unknown number garbled and lost as his voice fades].

David Boder

А кто [1-2 garbled] похоронил [этих?] [1 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, [после, после?] на другой день загнали людей в деревню [2-3 garbled] местечку Лынтуп и тогда копали больших [этих?] 80 метров в [в доложинье?] каналы и там ложились сколько там рядов и закопали их. А на другой день тоже была большая стрельба, так дальше по других деревней, как в Шудовцы деревне [Shudovtsy - about 2.1 km NNE of Lyntupy], так привезли там [1-2 garbled] [утром?] [2-3 garbled] автомашины по одному [1 garbled] [забинтовали?] и стреляли по одному. Так, тогда не один не удрал.

David Boder

А кто стреляли?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Немцы.

David Boder

А не, ни польские [1 blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет.

David Boder

эссэссы или украинские эссэссы?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет. Тогда нет. Тогда [были?] . . .

David Boder

[Немецкие эссэссы?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . только немецкие [потому, что они?] говорили по-немецки и мы не могли ничего с ними [делать?]. [1-2 garbled] тоже фуражка [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

[Unknown number of words garbled.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да, да . . . Да.

David Boder

Ну.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда это уже на другой день [указано как?] стреляли они.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

На другой день [так уже?] стреляли в дальше уже, в дальше деревни, которые были уже больше как 4.ех километров в радиусе . . . Да . . .

David Boder

Это было около Свенчан.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Около Свенчан и Лынтуп.

David Boder

Лынтуп.

Vladus Lukosevicius

При Лынтуп. Это совсем Лынтуп.

David Boder

И что, Под . . . Подбродзе близко там?

Vladus Lukosevicius

В Подбродзе тоже 30 километров, вот.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Это совсем, расстрелянные, это было в Лынтупах, местечку, [при могиле?].

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[При кладбище?].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда как похоронили этот большой [опять один?] на, на [пакетной?] земле, так тогда сказали [stammers] уже сравнять [немножко?], чтоб не было никакого, никакой заметки [засеет?]. А все-таки люди после ночи [стали?] засеять цветы, крестики вставили. [Ну, вот?] опять [1-2 garbled] людей, чтоб сравнять за какое время. Пять крестик [он уставит?] [1-2 garbled] насадит цветов, а что при . . . при дороге совсем расстреляли этих [ужасно?]. После [проведения?] на другой день, там в [?Жарки??] деревне [2-3 garbled] там [с этих?] . . . так . . . тоже там крестики вставили люди часто. И как в воскресенье идут [1-2 garbled] там полно женщин. Полно, полно [1 garbled] кричат и кричат, плачут. Но было так, что отец и [двух сынов?] убита бы [stammers] мужи [убитых этих?] жен [1-2 garbled] долго остались . . .

David Boder

Ну.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . так в этот случай там . . . Ну, после [еще?] была [?почестка??] такая в Свенчане в городе, Новые Свенчаны, в Адутишках, в Поставах, так около Новый Свенчан [43?] километра. Новый Свенчан там много расстреляли людей. [Два,?] двух священников [принесли?] католических убитых [1 garbled]. [Все тогда?] они считали немцы, что 400 людей убили, [?але??] так-как там видно [1-2 garbled] наверно около 1,000 было. [всего?] это.

David Boder

Ну, и еще [1-2 garbled] продолжалась, что за [1 garbled] были? А вы вернулись [себе?] в деревню [blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я в деревню сразу так еще [вернулся?]. После получил работу.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, после была [акция?], еще позвали нашу, нашего года рождения в амию. Это [1-2 garbled] на комиссию, на комиссию [не?] ушел.

David Boder

В немецкую армию?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да, в немецкую [не ушел?] тоже. После акции была [1-2 garbled] там окружали [уже?] все так [целого места?] [1-2 garbled] трясут лю(ди), мужчины и женщины искали.

David Boder

А [что же?] называется акция? [Что же?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Акция считали, ловить людей и вывозить их в Германию, а [1-2 garbled] в армию убрать.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так они считали акцию в 43.ем году [rest blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Ну, [blocked by Lukosevicius above] это было?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда уже ничего такого, только спрятался, не показывался нигде.

David Boder

Так. Ну, и как вот это продолжалось, и что было потом?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, потом уже . . .

David Boder

И так это было у вас до тех пока русские пришли . . . [1-2 garbled] Немцов.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да. Ну, тогда уже и нас они усмирились и ничего так. А, уже в 44.ом году когда . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . приближался, пред . . . подвигался советский фронт близко, тогда я уже один раз ушел в город Свенчан с интересом о [2-3 garbled] германская поймала . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . И тогда уже не пустили меня. Повезли, [я шел?] в город Шяуля́й, Шяуля́й.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И там посадили в лагерь. И пленные русские были, много там мужчин собрали.

David Boder

И [1-2 garbled] почему как русские пленные?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет, там был в одном бараке русские пленные военные были . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . советские. И там нас (2-3 garbled) так вот цивильных людей в другом бараке. [1-2 garbled] уже сам в районе где были [летчики?].

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Подержал?] там каких 4 дня и вывезли в Германию.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

В городе . . .

David Boder

У вас что было? Жена и дети?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Были тоже жена и дети.

David Boder

[Отдельно?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Дома [отстали?].

David Boder

Дома отстали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Дома отстали.

David Boder

Так, что [blocked by Lukosevicius].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я ничего не знал где [они?]. На улице взяли [both talking at once]

David Boder

Так, на улице взяли?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да.

David Boder

И ничего.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ничего никто не знает.

David Boder

У вас есть родственников [sic], чтобы через Америку написать им ничего?

Vladus Lukosevicius

В Америке родственников таких не имею. Но, в Бразилии имею.

David Boder

Так. А вы не пробовали [2-3 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я не пробовал.

David Boder

Так. Ну, значит дальше. И еще же вас увезли куда?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Увезли в город Герцогенбург [Herzogenburg]. Там около Герцогенбурга копали такие большие, глубокие ямы, по 3 метра с половиной и 4 метр, метра ширины. [Вставал?] такие столбы железные, как маяки [2-3 garbled] [на электрик?] и по 53 метра [вершины?]

David Boder

Зачем [1-2 garbeld]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, не знаю [1-2 garbled].

David Boder

И вот вы ямы копали.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Копал 3 месяца.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И после этого [stop when Boder interrupts.]

David Boder

Как вас держали, как вас кормили, как с вами обращали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Обращались так, как с [скатанной?]. Кормили так, ну . . . не могу сказать, но уже ну как в наш, в нашей стране так свинье лучше щи кушают как они нам давали людам кушать.

David Boder

Ну [4-5 garbled], [ну, ладно?].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Утром . . . 5 часов утром надо было [идти в ?бакаль??]. Ну, [?каль??] была как-то беленные [?нибы??] и не был соложен [3-4 garbled] [делать?] немножко так.

David Boder

А хлеба давали [тогда?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Хлеба давали утром.

David Boder

Какой этот хлеб был? . . . Пекли каждый день или каждую неделю?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, мы не [знали?] привозили откуда хлеб.

David Boder

"Привозили откуда хлеб"?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked by Boder, above]. Да.

David Boder

И было на нем мелкие опилки [stammers].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Было, было, опилки было.

David Boder

Аг, [в армии?], вы не знаете, что это был немецкий консервированный хлеб. Говорят, что [blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

А мы не знаем.

David Boder

. . . квадратные . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да, да.

David Boder

Так, как [1-2 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Garbled]

David Boder

Ага. А не были и потом [1-2 garbled] паковали, паковали [1-2 blocked by Lukosevicius] . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да, да, да.

David Boder

. . . деревом.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Было это опилками кругом было [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Да, а я . . .

David Boder

[In English] I want to make a remark. I couldn't track this down, but in certain lagers they were giving a bread that is equivalent to some kind of a canned or preserved bread that was baked a long time ago and then in a compressed form so to speak kept in boxes between sawdust and then it was distributed in the ah, in the ah camps. In the lagers. Alright . . .

David Boder

[In Russian] Ну?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда утром дают хлеба на 5, [была квота?] на 5 человек.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И дают немножко маргарины.

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

И тогда уже в 6 часов выезжаем на работу.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

В автомобиль и поехали. [Пока хочешь так и с этом?] хлебом [делить?].

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Тогда аж . . . целый день надо работать. Копать и копать землю. Выбрасывать 3 метра с половиной [верху?]. И ну как начинающую яму так и не так глубока, а так уже кончающую очень глубоко на [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

Глубоко и [2-3 garbled] квадрат.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] вверх выбрасывать и присматривает и кричать и толкают даже. Там греки работали, французы работали, аг, поляки . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну.

David Boder

[Garbled and blocked by Lukosevicius] были?

Vladus Lukosevicius

После . . . [?Илинь??]? Мне так и еще не пришлось [3-4 garbled]. Греков так много раз поляков били.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Мне так очень я еще старался работу как только мог, уже боялся [как?] [1-2 garbled].

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда уже 16.го, 16.го . . . гммм . . . ну . . . ноября. Ноября 16.го [?вызначил?] нас 10 человек на окопы копать, как это в 45.ом . . . нет, в 4- . . .

David Boder

4.ом.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . в 44.ом году.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да, окопы копать. Ну, и нас 6 литовцев и 4.ех болгаров [sic] . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . взяли из этого лагеря . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Признали как уже, что еще можем работать и высланы на окопы.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

В Deutschkreuz город около Вен-, Венгрии.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] [при?] венгерской границы. Там тоже мы жили 3 месяца, работали. Копали окопы. Там уже несколько лучше было. Немножко лучше. И немножко хлеба больше давали. Ну, и работы не так, не так тяжелая была. И меньше, меньше часов надо было работать.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Там, в э-, в этом городе Deutschkreuz 8,000 работу этих людей, которые окопы копали при [fades to nil].

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Вся?] [1 garbled] национальность. Французы были, итальянцы, поляки, русские. Литовцев было немного очень.

David Boder

Так . . . . Ну?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, тогда 3 месяца окопы копали эти. И после [этого уже?] подвигался в Венгрию фронт очень близко, уже слышно было, что очень близко . . .

David Boder

Кто?

Vladus Lukosevicius

сов-, совет уже под, [подлежал?].

David Boder

Да.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[А мы боялись?], чтобы в, в фронт в вагоне попасть [удрали?] с этих окопов.

David Boder

Кто [да?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

А, мы . . .

David Boder

Кто [да?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

5 человек.

David Boder

Литовцев?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Да.

David Boder

Это были люди [физиков?], которые с вами туда удрали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

А, нет, не тех . . .

David Boder

[Кто?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [это?], который [1 garbled] поднялся тут здесь уже в этом.

David Boder

Так. Ну, и как вы удрали и куда вы удрали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Удрали в Вену, в Вену город приехали и там . . .

David Boder

Как? Приехали или пришли?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Приехали [по этом?] [possibly mispronouncing "поездом"]. По, отправлялись уже некоторые эшелоны от [?своняли??] некоторых рабочих . . .

David Boder

Так

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . вот уже [2-3 garbled/blocked by Boder] . . .

David Boder

[Blocked]

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . а мы с этим транспортом приехали в Вену. В Вене . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . в Вене с транспорта выскочили и нашли там Литовская была [?саюнга??] так звался.

David Boder

Союз?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Литовская такая, ну, управление было.

David Boder

Так, в Вене?

Vladus Lukosevicius

В Вене.

David Boder

Так, а разве он не былa нацистской? [sic]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет [hesitatingly], ну . . . я не знаю так [там?] сказать . . .

David Boder

Так. И что-же вы делали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, мы там рассказали, что мы хотим уже, не хотим вернуть в этую [sic] фирму, где там работали и хотим, чтобы у [хозяина делали те?], чтобы [он уже не?] надоело нам в этих лагерях, чтобы отдох, отдохнуть немножко. Так они нам выдали такой, такую карточку, что мы только недавно шли [1 garbled] там так, так из [больницы?] [2-3 garbled] больницы пошли, и выдали документ нам ехать аж до Берлина. Ну, а мы тогда приехали . . . аг . . . [до Берлина ехали?] около Пассау и нашли . . .

David Boder

[Нашли?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Аг, нашли [хозяина?].

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[?Хозяинов??] и там жили уже 7 месяцев.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

В Принбахе.

David Boder

Гм-ммм.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Принбах-ам-Инн, при Инн.

David Boder

Так . . . Ну и потом что случилось?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Потом 8.го . . . [1-2 too weak] сентября.

David Boder

Ну, не важно. А потом.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Приехали здесь в лагерь, в Логенгрин [Lohengrin].

David Boder

Ну, как?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[2-3 garbled] приехали.

David Boder

Ну, [позвольте?]. Вас когда освободили?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Освободил 1.го мая.

David Boder

Кто освободил?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 blocked by Boder above] американская армия [зашла?].

David Boder

Куда?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, там где мы жили в Принбахе.

David Boder

А вы работали у [1-2 garbled/blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

У хозяина, у хозяина.

David Boder

Ну, скажите мне как это было, когда вы работали а потом американская армия зашла. Вы узнали, что свобода будет?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Мы знали уже, что придет [он?], все наблюдают, так слушали [совсем не будет или?] или скоро придет американская армия.

David Boder

А хозяин что говорил?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Хозяин был эсса [SA]. Этот там [both speaking at once/several missed] такой нас.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, он ничего нам не рассказал. Ничего, ничего. Политику, что [мы у него не?] спрашивали [о нем?], и нам не рассказывал ничего.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Одно?], что по-германски [sic] говорить не умел хорошо. Ну, так, вот там я работал и один поляк работал у этого хозяина.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Вот, 1.го мая поехали в лес. Ехали назад с леса с деревом и встретили американские танки уже на дороге. Так, мы еще удрали от дороги и думали, что будут стрелять. Вот, там было Солдатов несколько.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 blocked by Boder, above] германских, они все разбежались.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Но, мы [стали?] и [laughing] смеялись. Один американский солдат с танк выбросил [лычки?]. Это [2-3 garbled] я взял.

David Boder

Это чудно [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

А, не знаю. Он [на меня?] [2-3 garbled] [пока не?] стоял, он бросил [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

А, [кушать?] [1-2 garbled] они дали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, кушать мы не [получили?].

David Boder

[3-4 garbled] приехали. Они просто проезжали [2-3 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Они остановились и обходили [все-to нас разжали?] и обходили и искали все, на, а там было волксштурмами [не скоты?]. Эссэсс солдат был [1-2 garbled] также неорганизованна.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Так, разбежали [3-4 garbled] дальше на [городе?] . . .

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . которые подали все в плен. Это было около города Браунау. Браунау-Зимбах.

David Boder

[1 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Это Зимбах [куда ходили?] эти американские танки. Все [опознавались скоро?], много офицеров германских солдат шло в плен, поддавались [данные?].

David Boder

Так . . . Ну, и потом значит, вы, вас когда же прав-, аг, отослали сюда?

Vladus Lukosevicius

8.го [это был?] августа.

David Boder

45.го года?

Vladus Lukosevicius

45.го года.

David Boder

И вы [both talking and blocking each other at once.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked] [живу?] здесь в лагере.

David Boder

А что же вы делаете? В чем вы работаете?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, сразу не работаю, ничего [2-3 blocked by Boder]

David Boder

[Blocked by Lukosevicius, above]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] время, а после [в лес?] я иду. Ну, разделял эту [кушано?] полгода.

David Boder

Так.

Vladus Lukosevicius

А сейчас работаю тоже при выгрузки дерева.

David Boder

Так. По . . . Для кого вы грузите дерево?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Это для лагеря, в лагерь здесь привозить с леса, и выгружаем и складываем.

David Boder

Так. И что вы собираете делать?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Я сейчас?] шоферский курс окончил, и сейчас [прошел экзамен?] и дал уже тут в лагере все.

David Boder

Так. А что вы собираете делать?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я, и, как это?

David Boder

Куда вы собираете ехать? [2-3 garbled], что с вами будет?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ну, ну [где?] [2-3 garbled] [по результате?] там [я поеду?], но если, хотел бы поехать или в Аргентину или [1 short word garbled].

David Boder

А у вас родственники в Южной Америке есть?

Vladus Lukosevicius

В Южной Америке нет, только в Бразилии есть [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Ну, Бразилия, это южная. А вы ему писали?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет, не писал ничего.

David Boder

Не знает он про вас?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Не знает он про меня и я ничего не знаю. И адреса не помню я.

David Boder

И про семью ничего не знаете, да?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Не знаю ничего про семью.

David Boder

А у вас сколько там детей было?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Двое.

David Boder

Сколько лет?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Одному сей, сейчас 7.ой год, девочка, а мальчик будет 3 года.

David Boder

Так, что вы с своей семьи разделили.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Разделили.

David Boder

[In English] Аг . . . Well, that's the point on which we conclude the interview with Alfonsas Paulis [sic] at Lohengrinstrasse, the Baltic camp of displaced people, displaced Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians who are here pending their fate of which most of them don't know. They know only one thing.

David Boder

[In Russian] Вы хотите вернуться обратно в Литву?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Нет, не хочу. Я знаю хорошо советов, так как я жил 2 года под ним и [2-3 weak and garbled], [и так?] я сейчас не могу вернуться. Не, не один сейчас из нас не может вернуться [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

He feels he cannot go back, he doesn't want to go back. And so, a man at the age of 41 . . .

David Boder

[In Russian] Вам 41 год?

Vladus Lukosevicius

33 года.

David Boder

[In English] Ah, a man of 33, of the age of 33 is looking for a new country, a new land and a new anchor. This . . . Ja?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Я хотел бы же очень сильно не хочу вернуться, [чтобы?] я знаю, что ес-, если я вернусь, так я дома не увидел [все равно?]. Но если сразу как только Американцы зашли, чтобы сразу поехал, так может быть есть, а сейчас уже год [время не ехал?], так знаю хорошо, что я дома не увидел если я хотел бы [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Почему дом не увидете?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Garbled, only word audible is расстреляют].

David Boder

А за что? [В Литве?] вы ничего [и никуда не?] [1 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Нет, не все?], но я знаю как [советы?]. Я лучше знаю как другие. [История?] не знают.

David Boder

Так.

David Boder

[In English] It is a fear of getting killed, of being displaced, and the fear of others that transmits itself in a group and grows. They don't want to go back, they don't want to go back for their families. This concludes Spool 144, 14- this concludes spool 145 . . . at Lohengrinstrasse in the displaced people's camp, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians. Illinois Institute of Technology wire recording. September the 21st, 1946, in a camp maintained by the UNRRA in some special arrangement of the military government with the Germans. Quite some intricate conditions under which these camps are maintained and of which one has to get rather printed material and dated and to get a interview when someone doesn't know how to ask a question in order to get the proper answer. We are going now over to the Greek Orthodox church to take a part of the services. And tonight we will take the choruses of the Latvians and Lithuanians.

var english_translation = { interview: [ David Boder

[In English] Lohengrinstrasse, the Baltic camp in Munich, September the 21st, 1946. We have on the spool 4 minutes left, but we are going to start with the interview of Mr. Vladus Lukosevicius, [stammers], a Lithuanian. Lithuanian?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Jа.

David Boder

[stammers] ah, who will talk to us in Russian.

David Boder

[In Russian] Ah, how old are you, Mr. Lukosevicius?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ah, 13, 1913. [1-2 words too weak].

David Boder

But how old are you now?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I'm 33 now.

David Boder

33 years old . . . Well, Mr. Lukosevicius, speak [here?] in this direction, and right here to both sides . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1 weak].

David Boder

[In this one and this?]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes.

David Boder

Tell us where you were when the Russian arrived in Lithuania?

Vladus Lukosevicius

In 1939?

David Boder

Yes. [Life?].

Vladus Lukosevicius

As I [too weak].

David Boder

No, where YOU were when the Russians arrived in Lithuania.

Vladus Lukosevicius

When the Russians arrived in Lithuania, I was then . . . I was in the Polish army [I, in our?], our country was [1 weak] area under . . . Poland.

David Boder

Oh, you were in Poland.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes. I was in the Polish army then (and here) to Germany in captivity . . .

David Boder

Aha.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . when [2-3 words too weak].

David Boder

[And then?], that is, then tell me where you were when the war began? And tell me everything.

Vladus Lukosevicius

When the war began in 1939?

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

When, in 1939, when the war began, I was on the 24th of August, I had been mobilized into the Polish army.

David Boder

So . . . Well, [wait?] do it like so. Eh, what do you think started the war, when the Germans arrived in Poland or when?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I think the war began in 1939.

David Boder

This was when and what was it?

Vladus Lukosevicius

When the Germans attacked Poland.

David Boder

When the Germans.. attacked Poland?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes.

David Boder

They . . . Okay, [then nothing?]. So, fine. And where were you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I then [had been called?] into the Polish army.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

But and so [1-2 weak) of September the war started and I was in [1-2 weak/garbled] on the 13th of September I ended up in Germany as a captive and was taken to West Prussia.

David Boder

You were captured?..

David Boder

. . . and you were [so?] of Russian . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Garbled and blocked by Boder]

David Boder

No, as much as captured [2-3 garbled and blocked, both speaking at once while Boder tries to correct what he himself is saying.])

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . in West Prussia in Rosenberg. It was a Kreis . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . and Riesenburg the camp.

David Boder

So. Now you tell me everything in detail. How was it you were captured, how did they surround you? Tell me all of it. We have [time?] . . . Well?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, I . . . that is, well [the Germans had taken from us?] all the towns already and we were captured near the town of Siedlce, 3 kilometers from the town of [Siedlce?].

David Boder

Where were your officers?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They had taken away the officers [with us did not torment?] and already weren't with us.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[There was no [1-2 garbled] [a hit?]. So, the German tanks smashed us the first time outside of Warsaw, [not far from?] Warsaw, a town there . . . [the city?] [3-4 garbled].

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, so they held like that then . . .

David Boder

[1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

[Did he?] not [seize?] everyone?

Vladus Lukosevicius

No, no . . . [they did not seize?] [unknown number of words garbled] [and may?] have held out against the Germans [even then already?] . . .

David Boder

[2-3 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [they held?]

David Boder

And how did you persist . . . [a soldier?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

With us suddenly then in the woods [1-2 garbled]

David Boder

How many.. men?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There were 17 of us there [in the same place?] [fades, weak and garbled].

David Boder

So. So, this means you [1-2 garbled] the regiment was beaten, [it has been shot up?].

Vladus Lukosevicius

So.

David Boder

And there were 17 of you men in the woods.

Vladus Lukosevicius

17 in one group and we wanted to go along [1-2 garbled] the large road [to a marker?]) . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

and the Germans were riding [to the road) besides to [1-2 garbled] a second ordered us to approach him. As soon as we approached, the captured [us] and drove us to the town of Siedlce to [2-3 garbled/weak].

David Boder

Did you have weapons [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There were . . . [weapons?] [1-2 weak]

David Boder

So. What did they [say?] to you? Put your hands up?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, when [chuckles] [1 garbled] they said "hands up," yes . . .

David Boder

Yes,

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . and we lifted our hands.

David Boder

Well, tell me in detail Well, okay. They took you to a small town and what?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then the night was ([to it complexly?] [fades/garbled] us.

David Boder

[1-2 garbled]

Vladus Lukosevicius

They forced us into a barn, but they told use [1 garbled] there completely all around were Germans and [fades].

David Boder

So.

David Boder

[In English] This concludes Spool 144. We are going to change over to Spool 145 with a report of Mr. Vladus Lukosevicius, ah, in MÃnchen, September the 21st, 1946, in a Baltic camp, in a camp for displaced Baltic people of Estonia, Lithuania and . . . hmm, Latvia. Illinois Institute of Technology wire recording.

David Boder

September the 21st, 1946, Munich, Germany, at Lohengrinstrasse, the camp for Baltic displaced persons. Lukosevicius, Mr. Vladus Lukosevicius in Russian is continuing his story.

David Boder

[In Russian] So, there were 17 of you taken captive . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

They captured us.

David Boder

. . . and where were you located and what did they do with you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They put us immediately into a barn [one?] where it was also full of Germans [sounds as if he is in a tin can. 1 garbled] [there of the night outdoors?] was full [2-3 weak/garbled]. [After the morning?] they drove us to a prison. There was a large prison in Siedlce, [in the city)?]. So, they gathered us in the prison there and held us there for 2-3 more day, nearly 4,000 had been gathered [already into captivity?] [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, [they gave?] there bread for 5 men to eat [for a day?] one [small loaf?]. After, they forces 4,000 people on foot, they forces us, force us up to [well, some?] 170 kilometers. For, for 40 kilometers [a day?] [1-2 garbled]. They didn't give us anything to eat [healthful?].

David Boder

Well, go on.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Long pause, then both speak at once, all garbled] Yes. They drove us . . .

David Boder

[Blocked by above] Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

to the Prussian border to the town of [?Grakbova??], [?Grakbova??] station. Then they forced 70 men each into one boxcar, 70 people per car.

David Boder

So. And how did you know it was 70?

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, it was then so full, we were able to count.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

To stand, there was no place . . . to sit.

David Boder

So . . . Well?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Then they took us [across one part?] of Prussia, [1-2 garbled] the windows were closed, where we didn't ourselves know, [they too us?] the whole day after they left us in Riesenburg.

David Boder

Were there only prisoners?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Prisoners, there were only prisoners.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Then there were 18,000 of us already in Riesenburg.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we stayed outdoors and not under roof, it was really cold, that was [at?] the end of September really.

David Boder

Yes. So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, after the Germans arrived at Great [1-2 garbled-probable name] [from?] a factory and took several men each to the factories Great [1 garbled, probable name], so they counted out 30 of us men and for-, forced us to a bathhouse, disinfected us and inoculated us and then . . . ..

David Boder

So, shots a- . . . against diseases?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Against some kind of desease.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, after they took us from Great [1 garbled, possibly name. Sounds like "Odnoimenia?]), which the tiergarten was called.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And we worked there [full work?].

David Boder

Field work?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes, field work.

David Boder

What month was this?

Vladus Lukosevicius

This was 13 kilometers from Riesenburg.

David Boder

I said, [which?] month was this? [When was it?]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, it was [at?] the end of September.

David Boder

So . . . And what did you do?

Vladus Lukosevicius

We gathered beets and dug [?sukrovye??] and potatoes.

David Boder

So. And did they feed you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They also fed us for 5 people, one load of bread and they gave us sup there for dinner. [Blocked by Boder]

David Boder

And was it possible to eat the beets?

Vladus Lukosevicius

We also [tried?] to eat the beets. [Unknown number garbled.]

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled]

David Boder

Well?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well then we, I lived there 3 months. And there of the Lithuanian, Lithuanian nationality was [of the Polish army?], there were 11 of us men in this place.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we lived there already for 3 months . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . So, we thought about running away.

David Boder

How many of you thought about it?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Five men.

David Boder

Hmm-mm. And where [to go already?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Home. Home.

David Boder

Where To Lithuania?

Vladus Lukosevicius

To Lithuania, yes.

David Boder

But there were Germans there.

Vladus Lukosevicius

We didn't have them then, there were no Germans.

David Boder

And was?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There were the Bolsheviks.

David Boder

Oh! So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, we thought about running away and then we unscrewed [the flashing?] on 11 November at night . . . good [1-2 garbled] the windows.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

There we fabricated a monkey wrench in the blacksmith's shop . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . And [we escaped?] through the window. Then for 3 days and 3 nights [we counted that?] to Western [Blocked by Boder].

David Boder

And the other didn't expect [that?] [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

The others were sleeping at night. They didn't hear, who heard, so were [already?] for us . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . good comrades [laughs] so even they didn't [say?] anything.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[But?] there were Germans in the other room, who had been watching us.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

But, the windows were with gratings and [the doors?] at the headquarters, [maybe it was enclosed?]) . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [so of cours?].

David Boder

So . . . Well?

Vladus Lukosevicius

We [escaped?] so 3 days and 3 night across Prussia and while we were going to the Polish territory we didn't have anything to eat. [To?] the military clothing it was impossible to show ourselves to the Germans [anywhere?]

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And on the road to ask for cabbage soup, only downwind [at nights? ).

David Boder

Didn't you have any symbols on your clothing that you were prisoners?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Since?] our clothing was all Polish.

David Boder

Aha.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Military clothing.

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we didn't should ourselves at day. We walked only at night and not along the roads, but through the fields and right through the woods.

David Boder

So. Five men.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Five men.

David Boder

So. And what did you eat?

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, for 3 days we didn't eat anything.

David Boder

Well [blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[But there wasnât any more?]

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

What [we had taken?] with ourselves potatoes there, a little [cheese?], as we had been thinking to run away, so again at this estimate we took for ourselves there a little millet bread, and we were not able to ask anyone along the way for 3 days anything [we did not get anywhere, all day?] We didn't know how to say that [in German?] and the other thing was, that the clothing was military.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we walked to [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

[Blocked]. Of course there was food?

Vladus Lukosevicius

It was possible there [food and some water?] [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

Well, just something, you did eat something, right?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, one day we ate what we had with us.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

We had taken [that in the pockets?], there wasn't even anything to take.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

A after 2 days we didn't eat anything.

David Boder

Aha.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And so I [and just what?] [were?] not glad that we had escpated. [We would have wanted that?] [unknown number of words garbled] too.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we went to Polish territory already for, [he will help?] there.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Then, people already helped us, [then already?] we [were living?] okay.

David Boder

So. [Blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked by Boder]

David Boder

To, [along?] Polish territory, [it was?] [1 garbled] by Germans already?

Vladus Lukosevicius

The Germans were in the villages, [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

So. But, [in?] Poland did the Poles help?

Vladus Lukosevicius

The Poles [1-2 garbled] helped very well. At night along a [piece?] at night, yes, [you ask aren't there any Germans in this village?] and they would indicate that there are no Germans in [this village?], then we would enter a room at night and they would feed us, and on the road then it was already good.

David Boder

So. Well.. And where did you [end up?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, well like this. We got [stammers] to the Soviet border, where there already it was, ah, the Soviet-German border. [Poland?] had been divided.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, we . . . got right up to, there is such a river the Narva.

David Boder

Yes. The Narva?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Narvy . . . The Narev.

David Boder

The Narev. So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Nareva.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Nareva.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, [interrupted by Boder].

David Boder

[Wait?] a tributary [of the Neva)?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Not the Neva, the Visla.

David Boder

A tributary of the Visla to the Neva.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked by Boder] the Narva.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then we in this, in this, there were guards there on [the bridges?].

David Boder

Russian!

Vladus Lukosevicius

No, no, still German.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we were afraid to go across the river, we had to swim across the Narva river [he continues to call it the Narva. It is the Narev.] This Narva river [is?] rather wide.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, in [stops] ah, in a village near the Narva it was full of Germans.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we [individually?] decided there in [1-2 garbled], everyone looked [1-2 garbled] [the German us?] at nights as already [it had been tried?] so in this village lived fisherman and there were boats there.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Boats. So, at night we [as attempted?] we went into the village, stole a boat [so that we started?]) [3-4 garbled] the river. But, the small brook that passed the village toward the Narva was already ice covered, but the larger rive was not frozen. Then we [carried this?] boat and [three sat down?] [stammers] in the boat to cross this river and ga- gathered [full of ice?]. Then again [of the holes?] were pulled out into this water [1-2 garbled] and a trio sat down and crossed the river to the other side.

David Boder

And two were left?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Two were left. One then returned and again took them . . .

David Boder

Well, so.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . and brought them across the river.

David Boder

And the Germans didn't notice anyone.

Vladus Lukosevicius

The Germans didn't notice.

David Boder

And the Russians didn't notice?

Vladus Lukosevicius

The Russians were further, it was still further to the Russian border, well . . .

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . maybe about another 20 kilomters.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

To this river. Well then, as we had walked with luck, we crossed this river and reached the very Soviet border unnoticed, completely unnoticed and we didn't know in this direction [1-2 garbled] who wouldn't detain us at the border.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

As much as they detained us, it was already 15 kilometers beyond the border [2-3 garbled] city . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . a Soviet patrol there.

David Boder

So. Well..

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, it had been going very well for us and we didn't think that there was [those who had come, reached?] a window. We thought that the farmer, to sleep through the day and through the night. [We desired?] that we sleep at day. Well. [we refused?] that the Russian soldiers there [nearly 40 of them slept?]. [Questionable passages as well as possibly bad grammar make this sentence extremely difficult to translate. The sentence probably should read: "Well, it turned out that there were nearly 40 Russian soldiers sleeping there."] Well, it was not us [1 garbled], they gave us [salami?] [2-3 garbled], they gave us some bread, everything, well (stammers/2-3 garbled] we were doing, [we didn't have?] any such weapons and we slept with them as with good friends.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well then, the second day, in the morning, [they took?] us already there to their, to their commandant's office. The questioned how that what [garbled], we all were able to speed Russian well. Well, so, the let us go home to our own homeland, where, where I lived.

David Boder

And [in unbelief?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

The Vilnius area [where I?] lived there. Well, so we then started . . .

David Boder

Louder.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . then we already had arrived by train.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 weak/garbled] the station [to Lyntupy?] and went home on foot there already. Well, all the time nothing [was strking?].

David Boder

A bit louder. [Boder must believe Lukosevicius is not speaking loudly enough, but he is almost too loud.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes. We lived the whole time under Soviet authority, but I worked as a business and how . . . it had begun [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

[You what, were you a farm worker?])?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, [a farm worker?.) . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . as a farmer. Well, we lived all the time as in 1941 the war started.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Then the Germans arrived.

David Boder

And the soldier didn't take you prisoner?

Vladus Lukosevicius

The Russians?

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

They didnât take us, the did not, not have time. There wasn't time when [this very rapid?] [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

So. So the Germans arrived.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes. Then the Germans arrived. As the Germans arrived, well then I too as [a businessman, well so and a businessman, just nothing like it?]. But I can say such only in the event as early as in 1942.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, in 1942 and . . . as we . . . we already had [1-2 garbled] to [?kipits??] [the commissars?] and they were [farm workers?] [3-4 garbled], well so, in the town of Lyntupy?, in Lyntupy?, a very small town. (2-3 garbled] town. So, it was ordered there that the Germans were coming to collect the horses and carts in the town of Lyntupy?. Well so, early in the morning, it was 1942, the 20th of May . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . The Svenchan kreislandwirtschaftsfuehrer Josef Beck and his deputy [Walter Gruel?] [or possibly Walter Gruen] were going by auto to Lyntupy? [1 garbled] [to take?] the horses [1 garbled], and 4 kilometers before the reached Lyntupy?, the city, the town, well, some kind of partisans killed these Germans.

David Boder

Beck?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Beck and [Gruel/Gruen?] some kind of lieutenant also and there . . .

David Boder

[?[Gruel/Gruen?], was [this?] a Lithuanian?

Vladus Lukosevicius

No. [?[Gruel/Gruen?], was also this, [Walter [Gruel/Gruen?] was deputy kreislandwirtschaftsfuehrer . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And one captain a German and a driver and the translator, Rakauskaite.

David Boder

Well

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, so, they killed all of these.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Only this translator remained alive, but the driver, I don't know [how he was?].

David Boder

Well.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then after 2 hours this, from according to this case, after this case at 2:00 o'clock [with him from this?] from Vilno . . .

David Boder

Well

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . The SS, the Sicherheit unit, arrived . . . [Lukosevicius pronounces German words with Russian endings.]

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . and surrounded all the village 4 kilometers, at a radius of 4 kilometers. And all the men from 18 years old, if he were 16 years old [1 garbled] not small [age?] of the man, the gathered [everyone?]. Up to 60 years, up to 55 so, they did not take the women. Well, so, the people didn't know anything. They thought that they would be helping find these partisans [that?] had done this.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

But, they [1-2 garbled]. They collected everyone, hmm, the people, and I [had been trying?] to, I was leaving Lyntupy . . .

David Boder

Hm-mmm.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . and [in my pocket?] and me [on a body where these?] people stood, one in a shirt, another without a peaked cap, [1 garbled], who stood and something the Germans around with rifles [at?] [2-3 garbled] rifle Germ(ans) were walking around. One German [appeared?] out of this [company?] and called me to approach him. I again immediately [and I didn't want to?]. He moved up [frivolously?] and [said] "come here." Well, I approached and he showed me where [1-2 garbled] to stand. I in German [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

[Blocked/garbled] to stand?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Where the people were standing. Nearly 60 men were already standing . . .

David Boder

Apart?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Apart, and around them wal, walked Germans with rifles . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . at the ready. Well, then if I didn't want [these?] Germans [captured me?] [5-6 garbled] said where to stand there. I stood, but from, I wanted to ask these people, what [2-3 garbled] "Who [drove?] you," but (it/I) did not [2-3 garbled] that I didn't say anything.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then for some . . . another half hour they drove in more people, the drove in more men gather from other villages. ["Drove" is used in the sense of "driving cattle."] There already perhaps were nearly 200, and so one [could?] not well according to them [to indicate myself to be regarded?] everything from fear. Well, and then [garbled] throught [1 garbled] village to Lyntupy. So, we thought there would be some kind of interrogation. [He would?] ask [someone?], something they drove and then turned to [Barannoe?] Field, near the woods there is a such a burial ground and there was [1 garbled] wires around ([gorodina??]. They drove us and left us and said to come ahead already in three, [threes, well?]. In threes ahead. [Three each so?] they supplied, and German SS soldiers were laying there with rifles and with machine guns and they began to shoot. From [the first?] [1-2 garbled] [to cry out?] [1 garbled] the 3rd and the 4th, and everyone began to cross themselves and to pray. There one of the second [1 garbled] a father with a son and a brother with a brother began to see just that [wasn't already?] earlier [had passed?] the village. So, [the Germans carried?] every village one at a time. [1 garbled] [entered?] [one?] village [2-3 garbled] of a company [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

And you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[2 garbled]. "Well, come here. Come on." [Well that again will bring training again?]. That man doesn't know [for what and how?] [Unknown number of garbled words] [they brought one already. They brought each village one at a time?].

David Boder

And did the say why they [1-2 garbled]

Vladus Lukosevicius

Nothing, nothing, they didn't say anything. The, well, they began to shoot so [1-2 garbled] [three at a time they?] held on [everyone three each?]. [After?] [1-2 garbled] [such?] can already fif- [stops, corrects) nearly 50 men were killed.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So everyone, one was located of such [1-2 garbled] village [?Zhiromsk??] [such?]. So, that one grabbed [1 garbled], jumped at the German machine gunners, [and succeeded?] to take away a machine gun. So, at this time there was luck for some to escape. [How he fought?] with these [pauses/interrupted by Boder]

David Boder

[1-2 garbled] there was one machine gun?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There was a machine gun from one side, from the other there I was unable to count [3-4 garbled] [200?]. [2-3 garbled] not completely remembered, everything [wasn't?] . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . remembered fully.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] [crossed themselves?] and no one knew what to do.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, to stand all around with automatic weapons and bayonets on the rifles all around, and here [a soldier?] [1-2 garbled] they shoot.

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, how he fought that one such [1-2 garbled] was a man, he fought with this machine gunner, so more Germans jumped in and [attacked him with bayonets?], and I, perhaps some half minutes passed and at this time maybe nearly 20 of us men succeeded in escaping.

David Boder

Where [did you run?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Into the woods.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[We ran?], I don't remember anything [where and what, to [2-3 garbled] on, on these which [1-2 blocked by Boder] . . .

David Boder

[Blocked by Lukosevicius, above].

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . And [they held onto?] the killed and so straight into the woods and [1-2 garbled] [and so needed?], I don't even remember anything, how, how, how it remained. And the firing there was long and there nearly 400 men were killed [on that very day?] and finished off. Well, then on the next day . . .

David Boder

Were they all Lithuanians?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There were [Slovaks, and also there were?] Byelorussians there. [The dubious word "Slovaks" is most definitely not "Poles." According to Piotrowski there were 200 Poles killed that day on the streets and in their homes.]

David Boder

So. Were there any Jews?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There were no Jews.

David Boder

No. [Blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[They?] already [1-2 garbled] the Jews apart [2-3 garbled] [among?] the villages [well, somewhere equal to a field?], and well in the field [1 garbled] a man, the Germans arrived [come here?]. That hone didn't know anything, [he left a horse?] [1-2 garbled]. He approached here to [1 garbled) not to pass, "come with us." And he went and he went, so well, a man, ah, was sitting in a room, [2-3 garbled] "come here." Ano . . . Another [still didn't know?] he saw that all the people [were walking by day?] and he went there as left [blocked by Boder]. [Lukosevicius may be speaking about the Germans rounding up people from their fields and homes. During this part of the interview he was very agitated and speaking very rapidly.]

David Boder

Yes. [Who is with you?]? [Both speaking at once. All garbled.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [garbled] went to look. And everything. And so they killed them . . . Well, then on the next day and [with the evening?] [Blocked by Boder]

David Boder

Well, how did you run away?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I ran into the woods. It, I [3-5 garbled] village some 4 kilometers [1-2 garbled].

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, I ran away and [stammers] and I myself don't remember anything how, what . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . For the time being it has come from memory. Well, then [I thought?] I already was home.

David Boder

You went home?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I went home.

David Boder

So. And you [2-3 garbled] wrote [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They didn't write anything in any way. Well. [they took?] [blocked by Boder]

David Boder

This means that you were [blocked by Lukosevicius].

Vladus Lukosevicius

No, they/we were not able [to know?] anything.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And they did [not?] look for anything and [1-2 garbled/too weak] anything. Well, they took such [they got rid of, it was necessary to settle?] everything. Well, then they finished off the people so who had remained alive, so well the other [half of the woods?] both alive and healthy, and those not alive [she was?], well, from [2-3 garbled]. [So he/This way?], so, I/he lay there as the Germans left. They finished off those who were still alive. They shot them in the head with explosive bullets.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, so . . . one another there [further?] 300 [1-2 garbled) perhaps 3 people [to leave and along the bodies?] [2-3 garbled]. [Unknown number garbled and lost as his voice fades].

David Boder

And who [1-2 garbled] buried [these?] [1 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, [after, after?] on the next day the drove the people into the village [2-3 garbled] town of Lyntupy and then they dug [these?] large 80 meters in the [in length?] channels and there laid as many rows there and buried them. And on the next day there also was a lot of shooting, so further among the other villages, both in the village of Shudovtsy [about 2.1 kilometers NNE of Lyntupy] and they brought them [1-2 garbled] [in the morning?] [2-3 garbled] of a vehicle one at a time [1 garbled] [taped?] [them] and shot [them] one at a time. So, then not one escaped.

David Boder

And who did the shooting?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Germans.

David Boder

And not, not Poles [1 blocked by Lukosevicius].

Vladus Lukosevicius

No.

David Boder

SS or Ukrainian>SS

Vladus Lukosevicius

No. Then not. Then [they were?] . . .

David Boder

[German SS?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . only German [because they?] spoke German and we were not able to [do?] anything with them. [1-2 garbled] a peaked cap too [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

[Unknown number of words garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes, yes . . . Yes.

David Boder

Well

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then it was already on the next day [it was indicated how?] they shot.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

On the next day [so already?] they were shooting in further already, in further villages which were already more than 4 kilometers in radius . . . Yes . . .

David Boder

It was near Svenchan.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Near Svenchan and Lyntupy.

David Boder

Lyntupy.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Near Lyntupy. It was completely of Lyntupy.

David Boder

And what, Pod . . . Podbrodzie was near there?

Vladus Lukosevicius

It was also 30 kilometers to Podbrodzie, well.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

It was entirely, the shot were in Lyntupy, the town, [near a grave?].

David Boder

(25:04) So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Near a cemetery?].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then as they buried this large [again one?] in, in [packet?] ground, so then they said [stammer) already to compare [a little?], so there was no kind, [sow?] no kind of memorial. But anyhow, people [began?] to plant flowers and erect crosses after dark. [Well?] again [1-2 garbled] the people in order to compare for what time. [He would place?] five crosses [1-2 garbled] plant flower, and that near . . . near the road they totally shot these [terribly?]. After [the event?] on the next day, there in [?Zharki??] a village [2-3 garbled] there [from these?] . . . So . . . the people often place crosses there, too. And how on Sunday they went [1-2 garbled) it was full of women there. Full, full [1 garbled] screaming and screaming and crying. But it was so that a father and [two sons?] were killed [stammers] the husbands [of these killed?] women [1-2 garbled) stayed for a long time . . .

David Boder

Well . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . so in this case there . . . Well, after [again?] there was such an [ceremony?] in the city of Svenchan, Novye Svenchany, in Adutiskis, Postavy, so near Novye Svenchany [43?] kilometers. Many people were shot there at Novye Svenchany. [Two?] of two priests they [brought?] the Catholics killed [1 garbled]. [Everything then?] they thought the Germans, that they killed 400 people, [but?] most likely it was nearly 1,000 [in all?] of it.

David Boder

Well, and again [1-2 garbled] continued, what were [1 garbled]. And you returned [yourself?] to the village [blocked by Lukosevicius].

Vladus Lukosevicius

So I [returned?] again right away to the village. After I got work.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, after there was an [action?], and they called our, our birth year again into the army. It [1-2 garbled], I did [not?] go to the commission, to the commission.

David Boder

Into the German army?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes, [I?] also [did not go?] into the German. After the action there was [1-2 garbled] there they [already?] surrounded everyone so [of the whole place?] [1-2 garbled], the peo(ple) were jolted, the men and women were searching.

David Boder

and [what?] is an action called? [What?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They considered an action, to catch people and take them to Germany, and [1-2 garbled] take into the army.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So they considered an action in 1943 [rest blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Well, [blocked by Lukosevicius, above] was it?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then there was already nothing like it, only I hid, I didn't show myself anywhere.

David Boder

So. Well, and well how did it continue, and what happened later?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, afterwards already . . .

David Boder

And so it was like this for you until the Russians arrived . . . [1-2 garbled] the Germans.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes. Well, then they already had put us down and nothing like it. And, as early as 1944 when . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . arrived, reach . . . the Soviet front approached close, then I went into the city of Svenchan once interested in [2-3 garbled] a German caught me . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . And they thy were not going to release me. They took me, [I went?] to the city of Shyaulyai, Shyaulyai.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

and there I landed in a camp. And there were Russian prisoners, they had collected many men there.

David Boder

And [1-2 garbled] why as Russian prisoners?

Vladus Lukosevicius

No, there was, in one barracks were the Russian military prisoners . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . Soviet. And there (2-3 garbled) us so civilians were in another barracks. [1-2 garbled] already myself in a region where there were [pilots?].

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[He held me?] there like 4 days and they took me to Germany.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

In the city . . .

David Boder

You had what? A wife and children?

Vladus Lukosevicius

There were also a wife and children.

David Boder

[Apart?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[They had stayed?] at home.

David Boder

They had stayed at home?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They had stayed at home.

David Boder

So, what [blocked by Lukosevicius].

Vladus Lukosevicius

I don't know anything where [they are?]. They captured [me] on the street [both talking at once].

David Boder

So, they captured [you] on the street?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes.

David Boder

And nothing.

Vladus Lukosevicius

No one knows anything.

David Boder

Do you have relatives so you can write them anything through America?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I don't have such relatives in America. But I have some in Brazil.

David Boder

So. And you didn't try [2-3 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

I haven't tried.

David Boder

So. We, then further. And again where did they take you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They took me to Herzogenburg. There near Herzogenburg we dug large, deep holes, 3 1/2 meters each and 4 meter, meters wide. [He installed?] some kind of iron columns, like lights [2-3 garbled] [for electric?]. and 53 meters each [high?]

David Boder

(29:11) Why [1-2 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, I don't know [1-2 garbled].

David Boder

And well, you dug holes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

I dug for 3 months.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And after this [stops when Boder interrupts].

David Boder

How did they hold you, how did they feed you, how did the behave toward you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They behaved so as with [rolled up?]. They fed us so, well . . . I can't say, but well, already like in our, in our country the swine eat better cabbage soup than they gave us people to eat.

David Boder

Well, [4-5 garbled], [well, okay.).

Vladus Lukosevicius

In the morning . . . at 5 a.m. we had to [go to the ??bakal??]. Well, [?kal??] was somehow blanched [?niby??] and was not sweetened [3-4 garbled] [to do?] a little.

David Boder

And did they give you some bread [then?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They gave us some bread in the morning.

David Boder

What kind of bread was it? . . . Did they bake every day or every week?

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, we did not [know?] from where they brought the bread.

David Boder

"From where they brought the bread"?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked by Boder, above]. Yes.

David Boder

And there was a fine sawdust on it [stammers].

Vladus Lukosevicius

It was, it was, it was sawdust.

David Boder

Ah, [in the arm?], you didn't know that it was a German preserved bread. The say that [blocked by Lukosevicius].

Vladus Lukosevicius

And we didn't know.

David Boder

. . . squares . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes, yes.

David Boder

So, like [1-2 garbled], [

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Garbled]

David Boder

Aha. And they were not and then [1-2 garbled] packed, they packed [1-2 blocked by Lukosevicius] . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes, yes, yes.

David Boder

. . . with wood.

Vladus Lukosevicius

It was, it was with all around with sawdust [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Yes, and I . . .

David Boder

[In English] I want to make a remark. I couldn't track this down, but in certain lagers they were giving a bread that is equivalent to some kind of a canned or preserved bread that was baked a long time ago and then in a compressed form so to speak kept in boxes between sawdust and then it was distributed in the ah, in the ah camps. In the lagers Alright . . .

David Boder

[In Russian] Well?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then in the morning they gave us some bread for 5 [it was a quota?] for five people.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And they gave us a little margarine.

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And then as early as 6 a.m. we went to work.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Into the car, and we went. [Do you want for a while with this?] bread [to share?].

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Then even . . . we had to work for the whole day. To dig and dig the ground. To throw it 3 1/2 meters [up?]. And well as a starting hole so and not so deep and so the last was already very deep at [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Deep and [2-3 garbled] a square.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] though it up and watch and scream and even shove. Greeks worked there, French worked and ah, Poles . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well.

David Boder

[Garbled and blocked by Lukosevicius] were?

Vladus Lukosevicius

After . . . [?Ilin??]? I still didnât have to [3-4 garbled]. The Greeks beat the Poles many times.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

I tried to work as much as I could, but I was already afraid [1-2 garbled].

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then as early as the 16th, the 16th.. hmm . . . Well . . . of November November 16th [1 garbled] 10 of us men to dig trenches, as it was in 1947 . . . no, in 194- . . .

David Boder

4.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . in 1944.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes, to dig trenches. Well, but 6 of us Lithuanians and 4 Bulgarians . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . they took [us] from this camp . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

The recognized how already that we can work again and we were sent to the trenches.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

In the city of Deutschkreuz near Hun-, Hungary.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled], [near?] the Hungarian border. There we also lived 3 months and we worked. We dug trenches. There is was somewhat better. Somewhat better. And they gave us a little more bread. Well, and the work was not so, it was not so severe. And fewer, we had to work fewer hours.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

there in, in this city Deutschkreuz the work of these people, who dug the trenches near [fades to nil].

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[All?] [1 garbled] nationality. There were French, Italians, Poles and Russians. There were very few Lithuanians.

David Boder

So . . . . Well?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, then we dug these trenches for 3 months. And after [this?] the front had moved very close to Hungary, and it was already heard that it was very close . . .

David Boder

Who?

Vladus Lukosevicius

The Sov, the Soviet was already out, [liable?].

David Boder

Yes.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[And we were afraid?] that to, to the front to get into a rail car [we escaped?] from these trenches.

David Boder

Who [right?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ah, we . . .

David Boder

Who [right?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Five men.

David Boder

Lithuanians?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Yes.

David Boder

These were people (1 garbled) who had escaped there with you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ah, no, not those . . .

David Boder

[Who?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . [It was?] who [1 garbled] had been lifted here as early as in this.

David Boder

So. Well, and how did you escape and to where did you escape?

Vladus Lukosevicius

We escaped to Vienna, we arrived in the city of Vienna and there . . .

David Boder

How? Did you ride or walk?

Vladus Lukosevicius

We rode [on this?] [possibly misprounced "by train" in Russian]. According to, we were sent already some troop trains from [?Svonyali??] some workers . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . well already [2-3 garbled/blocked by Boder] . . .

David Boder

[Blocked]

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . and we arrived in Vienna with the transportation. in Vienna:..

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . in Vienna we jumped off the transport and found there was a so-called Lithuanian [?sayunga?? - Possibly a Lithuanian work for "representative" or "legation") there.

David Boder

A union?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Lithuanian, well, it was a directorate.

David Boder

So, in Vienna?

Vladus Lukosevicius

in Vienna:

David Boder

So, really wasn't it Nazi? [sic]

Vladus Lukosevicius

No [hesitatingly), well . . . I don't know to say so [there?] . . .

David Boder

So. And just what did you do?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, there we told them that we wanted, we did not want to return to this firm, where we worked there, and we wanted that with [a farmer we did those?], so that [he already did not?] bother us in these camps, in order to re-, relax a bit. So, they issued such, such a card that we only recently had gone [1 garbled] there such, such from [a hospital?] [2-3 garbled] hospital had gone and the issued us a document to go all the way to Berlin. Well, and we then arrived . . . ah . . . [we went to Berlin?] nearly Passau and found . . . [Definitely not Berlin, but sounds like it.]

David Boder

[You found?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ah, we found [a farmer?].

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[?Some farmers??] and we lived there 7 months already.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

In Prienbach.

David Boder

Hm-mmm.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Prienbach-am-Inn, near the Inn.

David Boder

So . . . Well and then what happened?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Then on the 8th . . . [1-2 too weak] of September.

David Boder

Well, and that's not important. And afterwards?

Vladus Lukosevicius

We arrived here in the camp in Lohengrin.

David Boder

Well, how! . . .

Vladus Lukosevicius

We arrived [2-3 garbled]

David Boder

Well, [permit [me]?]. When did they liberate you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I was liberated on 1 May.

David Boder

Who liberated you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 blocked by Boder above] the American army had [come?].

David Boder

Where?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, there where we live in Prienbach.

David Boder

And you were working at [1-2 garbled/blocked by Lukosevicius]

Vladus Lukosevicius

With a farmer, with a farmer.

David Boder

Well, tell me how it was when you were working and then the American army arrived. Did you know there would be freedom?

Vladus Lukosevicius

We knew that [it?] would come, everyone was watching, so they listened [completely would not be or?] or soon the American army will arrive.

David Boder

And what did the farmer say?

Vladus Lukosevicius

The farmer was SA. This there [both speaking at once/several missed] such as us.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, he didn't tell us anything. Nothing, nothing. The policy that [we didn't?] ask [about it from him?], and he didn't tell us anything.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[One thing?] that I didn't know how to speed well in German. Well, so, well I was working there and one Pole was working with this farmer.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, on the first of May we had gone into the woods. We were going back from the woods with a tree and we encountered American tanks on the road itself. So, we ran away from the road and thought they would shoot. Well, there were several soldiers there.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 blocked by Boder, above] of the Germans, they all were scampering about.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

But we [stayed?] and [laughing] were laughing. One American soldier threw [some badges of rank?] from the tank. It was [2-3 garbled] I took.

David Boder

Was it wonderful [1-2 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

Ah, I don't know. He [at me?] [2-3 garbled] [for the time being did not?] stand, he threw [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

And did they give you [1-2 garbled] [to eat?]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, we didn't [get anything?] to eat.

David Boder

[3-4 garbled] arrived. The just went past [2-3 garbled]?

Vladus Lukosevicius

They stopped and went around [but they unbound us?] and went around and looked for everything, on, but there were [no cattle?] with the volksturms. The SS soldier was [1-2 garbled] also unorganized.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

So, they scattered [3-4 garbled] further to [the city?] . . .

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

. . . who ended up all in captivity. It was near the city of Braunau. Braunau-Simbach.

David Boder

[1 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

It was Simbach [where?] these American tanks [were going?]. Everyone [was identified soon?], many German officer solders went into captivity, they yielded [data?].

David Boder

So . . . Well, and then, you, you when right, ah, they sent you here?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[It was?] on the 8th of August.

David Boder

1945?

Vladus Lukosevicius

1945.

David Boder

And you [both talking and blocking each other at once.]

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Blocked] [I live?] here in the camp.

David Boder

And just what do you do? What are you working at?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, I wasn't working right away, nothing [2-3 blocked by Boder].

David Boder

[Blocked by Lukosevicius, above].

Vladus Lukosevicius

[1-2 garbled] time, and after I go [into the woods?]. Well, I have been sharing this [food?] for half a year.

David Boder

So.

Vladus Lukosevicius

And right now I am working too with unloading wood.

David Boder

So. For . . . For whom do you load the wood?

Vladus Lukosevicius

It is for the camp, to bring it here to the camp from the woods, and we unload and stack it.

David Boder

So. And what do you intend to do?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Now I?] have finished a driving course, and right now [I have passed the examination?] and I have already turned in everything in the camp.

David Boder

So. And what do you intend to do?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I, and, how is it?

David Boder

Where do you intend to go? [2-3 garbled] what will be with you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Well, well [where?] [2-3 garbled] [as a result I will go?] there, but if I would like to go either to Argentina or [1 short word garbled].

David Boder

Do you have any relatives in South America?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Not in South America, only in Brazil [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Well, Brazil, that's south. And did you write him?

Vladus Lukosevicius

No, haven't written anything.

David Boder

Doesn't he know about you?

Vladus Lukosevicius

He doesn't know about me and I don't know anything. And I don't remember the address.

David Boder

And you don't know anything about [your] family, right?

Vladus Lukosevicius

I don't know anything about [my] family.

David Boder

And how many children did you have there?

Vladus Lukosevicius

Two.

David Boder

How old?

Vladus Lukosevicius

One is now, now 7, a girl, and the boy will be 3 years old.

David Boder

So, you have been separated from your family.

Vladus Lukosevicius

We have been separated.

David Boder

[In English] Ah . . . Well, that's the point on which we conclude the interview with Alfonsas Paulis [sic] at Lohengrinstrasse, the Baltic camp of displaced people, displaced Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians who are here pending their fate of which most of them don't know. They know only one thing.

David Boder

[In Russian] Do you want to return back to Lithuania?

Vladus Lukosevicius

No, I don't. I know the Soviets well, since I lived under them 2 years and [2-3 weak and garbled], [and so?] right now I can't return. No, not one of us can return right now [2-3 garbled].

David Boder

[In English] He feels he cannot go back, he doesn't want to go back. And so, a man at the age of 41 . . .

David Boder

[In Russian] Are you 41 years old?

Vladus Lukosevicius

33.

David Boder

[In English] Ah, a man of 33, of the age of 33 is looking for a new country, a new land and a new anchor. This . . . Ja?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[In Russian] I would like to [say] very strongly I do not want to return, [so that?] I know, that if, if I return, then I will not see my home [all the same?]. But if as soon as the Americans had arrived that I had gone right away, then perhaps yes, but now it's already a year [time I did not go?], so I well know that I would not see home if I would want [blocked by Boder].

David Boder

Why wouldn't you see home?

Vladus Lukosevicius

[Garbled, only word audible is "they shoot"].

David Boder

And for what? [In Lithuania you [by no means?] nothing [1 garbled].

Vladus Lukosevicius

[No, not everything?], but I know how [the Soviets?] are I know better as the others [sic]. They don't know [the history?].

David Boder

So.

David Boder

[In English] It is a fear of getting killed, of being displaced, and the fear of others that transmits itself in a group and grows. They don't want to go back, they don't want to go back for their families. This concludes Spool 144, 14- this concludes spool 145 . . . at Lohengrinstrasse in the displaced people's camp, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians. Illinois Institute of Technology wire recording. September the 21st, 1946, in a camp maintained by the UNRRA in some special arrangement of the military government with the Germans. Quite some intricate conditions under which these camps are maintained and of which one has to get rather printed material and dated and to get a interview when someone doesn't know how to ask a question in order to get the proper answer. We are going now over to the Greek Orthodox church to take a part of the services. And tonight we will take the choruses of the Latvians and Lithuanians.