Boder:
/In English:/ Munich, September the 24th, 1946, at the UNRRA University of the Deutsches Museum. The interviewee is Mr. Victor Ferdinansk, a Lithuanian, who will talk to us in German. /In German:/ Now tell me, Victor, what happened to you when the Russians had come to Lithuania?

Ferdinansk:
/In German. He speaks rather fluently, but is the German of a foreigner./ And so the Russians came to Lithuania. They came in 1940. At that time I was a gymnasium pupil of third grade /possibly counting from the top/, and in the autumn of that year I came to Tallin and entered the eighth year of the Ritter Seminary /Seminary of the Knights; origin of the name is not clear, but possibly named after the Crusaders/.

Boder:
What is your religion?

Ferdinansk:
I am a Roman Catholic.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
And it was clear to all of us that the Ritter Seminary will not continue to exist for long.

Boder:
In what city was that seminary?

Ferdinansk:
In Tallin.../correction/ in Kovno/?/.

Boder:
In Kovno/?/? A so called /in Russian/ theological seminary.

Ferdinansk:
A theological seminary.

Boder:
Near Riga/?/? Well...

Ferdinansk:
And as a member of the Franciscan Order, I was sent by my superiors to Germany with instructions to go to Italy, since at that time a number of our compatriots studied in Italy, and they had already obtained for us the /proper/ documents.

Boder:
Now what does that mean, 'the documents'? What kind of documents did you need?

Ferdinansk:
That means entrance documents /permits/ to Italy.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
But we were deeply disappointed when we came to Germany.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
I had the intention to get to Italy, but instead of that something different happened. At the illegal crossing of the border I was...

Boder:
Oh, you had crossed the border to Germany illegally?

Ferdinansk:
Yes. I was arrested and placed in a lager where I spent seven days. But then it was established /?/ that I was not a spy. So then supplied with a pass, I was sent to Berlin where I had to render services as a prisoner /?/ together with French prisoners who were in Germany.

Boder:
Oh, so you did not get a traveler's permit to Italy?

Ferdinansk:
No.

Boder:
You were simply taken prisoner?

Ferdinansk:
I was arrested and taken to work.

Boder:
Now go on.

Ferdinansk:
After I had worked approximately three or four months...

Boder:
Did you live in a lager?

Ferdinansk:
That was a work lager.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
Very many slept in one room. I believe there were fifty people, at least.

Boder:
Yes. Nu, and...

Ferdinansk:
And once the whole building where we lived together was searched, and of the basis of my nationality /Lithuanian/ I was again arrested by the Gestapo and taken to the police headquarters of Berlin. They questioned me at length for three hours, asked about various things, but it was established then that I was not a dangerous person, but just a student of theology...

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
...and I was released after the three-hour questioning.

Boder:
Nu.

Ferdinansk:
But the whole story was very unpleasant to me, and I did not want it to have possibly any /bad/ consequences. For that reason I went from Berlin to Munich.

Boder:
Now how come? Ille-...

Ferdinansk:
Illegally...

Boder:
Illegally. Now tell me, could you not come to an understanding with the Catholic clergy in Germany that they should help you? With the Franciscans?

Ferdinansk:
No. In Berlin that was hardly possible, because all the authorities were badly set against religion, and there was nothing one could do.

Boder:
Now...

Ferdinansk:
I was then very young, and was in very poor command of the German language.

Boder:
Were you permitted to go to church?

Ferdinansk:
One was permitted to go to church.

Boder:
Could you not talk there with the priest?

Ferdinansk:
Practically /in fact/ they could not help much. And then in order to be able to admit /to the parish/ all the foreigners, they also had to have a police permit. And without such a police permit they could not admit one at all. That is why I decided to flee to Bavaria, where the whole country is Catholic.

Boder:
Nu.

Ferdinansk:
And...

Boder:
You came then to Munich?

Ferdinansk:
To Munich. In 1941 in the spring I came to Munich where I was accepted by a Franciscan monastary, where I was working until 1945 as a Lithuanian and foreigner.

Boder:
Ah. So afterwards the Germans knew that you were there?

Ferdinansk:
Later on...They did not know it. But later on, when I was registered, that was...

Boder:
Cleared up?

Ferdinansk:
An employee of the Gestapo arrived. The whole affair was cleared up, and he gave the following orders: I have no right to go out into the city in 'civies', that means in civilian clothes, only in the habit of the order...

Boder:
Nu.

Ferdinansk:
...which /although it/ then was permitted, that people of the order could go into the city in civilian clothes.

Boder:
Nu.

Ferdinansk:
Then, second, it was ordered that every week I had to present myself to the nearby police station.

Boder:
Nu.

Ferdinansk:
It was prohibited for me to speak Lithuanian on the street.

Boder:
Oh, yes.

Ferdinansk:
And /I/ was also not permitted to write Lithuanian letters to others, in the Lithuanian language.

Boder:
Hm. But you could write in the German language.

Ferdinansk:
In the German language I was not /?/ permitted to write.

Boder:
To whom could you or did you want to write?

Ferdinansk:
Ordinarily I maintained no other correspondence with my friends, with other...

Boder:
Where, here in Germany?

Ferdinansk:
Here in Germany.

Boder:
In lagers, et cetera/?/.

Ferdinansk:
Yes.

Boder:
Aha. Now continue. During all that time did the Germans ever beat you?

Ferdinansk:
Thanks to the fact that I was a student, it is self-understood that I did not have the occasion to get into beatings.

Boder:
Why is that so self-understood? You have told me that the Germans did not respect religion too much.

Ferdinansk:
That is of course correct.

Boder:
But...but as far as you are concerned?

Ferdinansk:
In the monastery...in the monastery I still had a Catholic environment, and it did not come to it /to beatings/.

Boder:
And what were you doing in the monastery?

Ferdinansk:
In the monastery? That is very hard to tell. We were...

Boder:
Were you treated there like all the others?

Ferdinansk:
That cannot be said. I always felt that I was a foreigner. And they always gave us /?/ to understand that we are foreigners, and we were in all...

Boder:
...respects.

Ferdinansk:
...respects slighted, for that reason.

Boder:
By the other people, by the other Franciscans?

Ferdinansk:
As well, as well.

Boder:
By the brothers?

Ferdinansk:
By the brothers as well.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
And that is why I decided in 1945, when the Americans arrived and had established the civilian /?/ camps, to enter the monastery...

Boder:
To leave?

Ferdinansk:
Yes, to leave, and that is what I did.

Boder:
Hm. And what do you study here now?

Ferdinansk:
At this university I study jurisprudence, and I am now in the second semester.

Boder:
Then you have given up theology?

Ferdinansk:
I have given up theology, and only for the reason that I did not want to remain in Germany, and work among the Germans as such, as a clergyman.

Boder:
Now tell me this. That you...It is very interesting to have met you. What did the Franciscan brothers think about the Nazis? I mean in general. What was the mood during the war? It is very important for us that you give us such an appraisal. I don't ask the others about it. I just want personalia /personal experiences/. But you are a theologian. You have lived in a monastery. What was their attitude towards the war, towards the Nazis and all that?

Ferdinansk:
This mood /attitude/ varied greatly. It depended on what kind of a person one was. The older ones were, so to speak, avowed enemies of Nazism.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
But there also were younger ones, Germans, /among whom/ we as foreigners did not count. We were left in the monastery, but the young German clergy were incorporated...

Boder:
What does that mean, 'incorporated'?

Ferdinansk:
'Incorporated', that means in the army.

Boder:
Oh, they were taken?

Ferdinansk:
Taken, and were to fight also for the Hitler cause.

Boder:
Hm.

Ferdinansk:
These of course have passed through the Hitler school, had military...had gone through military service, and as young people they were not shrewd enough to appraise the events properly.

Boder:
Now when did you see those, after they were through with the army? How was that all?

Ferdinansk:
Yes. We...During the war they time and again, repeatedly, were coming on furlough.

Boder:
Oh, yes. Well...

Ferdinansk:
And so one could, through brief conversations, gain an insight into their way of thinking. All of them, one might say most of them, were inspired by Hitler.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
The young people.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
But I also have me others who understood the Hitler cause differently than Hitler himself.

Boder:
Nu.

Ferdinansk:
They...

Boder:
Now tell me, where was Bishop Faulhaber? Where was he, in Munich?'

Ferdinansk:
Yes. At that time Bishop.../correction/ Cardinal Faulhaber...

Boder:
Cardinal Faulhaber.

Ferdinansk:
...was in Munich. He was in Munich.

Boder:
Well, he was not pro-Hitler.

Ferdinansk:
No. Definitely no.

Boder:
Well, and the others? Tell me, what did you /they?/ know about the persecution of various nationalities? Say, for instance, what did you know about what was done with the Jews, with the Norwegians, with the Gypsies, and so on?

Ferdinansk:
Yes. Well, what was done with the Jews has become clear to everybody. We all knew that the Jews were incarcerated and murdered. That all the Germans knew as well. It is self-understood that against that there was nothing to do...

Boder:
Hm.

Ferdinansk:
...since we, as foreigners, could feel fortunate that we /ourselves/ could in some way live as humans and are not locked up.

Boder:
Hm. But the Germans, the German clergy, they knew it, and what did they say about it? Did they say 'it serves them right', or...

Ferdinansk:
The German clergy never approved of it, and at the lectures about the Old Testament, the question was often brought up concerning the Jews. So I can well remember that the Herr Professor had categorically expressed himself against the mistreatment of the Jews.

Boder:
And what did the German students say?

Ferdinansk:
The German students too rejected the humiliation /degrading/ of a certain nation. As theologians they did so always.

Boder:
Now tell me, what was their attitude towards the war? Did they want Germany to win the war and the like?

Ferdinansk:
That varied a great deal.

Boder:
You understand...

Ferdinansk:
Yes.

Boder:
...that I ask only you such a question...

Ferdinansk:
Yes.

Boder:
...because I thing that you were a better observer than the others.

Ferdinansk:
Yes, yes.

Boder:
You were not in a lager. You were in a way free. You could talk with the Germans. The others could not. True? Now then, go on.

Ferdinansk:
And so it varied. Most of them wanted the war to be won /by the Germans/. Then in it they saw their own chance of existence.

Boder:
Oh, yes, and they were...they belonged to the country, true?

Ferdinansk:
Yes.

Boder:
And one cannot take offense against a person if he wishes that his country should win a war. You understand that?

Ferdinansk:
Yes, I understand.

Boder:
Well, they wanted to win. But how was it when the end /of the war/ approached? Well? /Pause./ Were you in the monastery when the Americans arrived?

Ferdinansk:
Yes, I was still in the monastery.

Boder:
And how did things look then? Tell me.

Ferdinansk:
Well, most remained calm and were very satisfied that the Hitler reign had finally come to an end.

Boder:
And they knew that the Americans won't do anything to them?

Ferdinansk:
Yes, of course. But I have met quite a few young soldiers /German/, that is former soldiers, who were greatly saddened that soldiers of other countries have entered their land.

Boder:
Now, well, weren't they themselves in other countries?

Ferdinansk:
That certainly is correct. But as children of their fatherland, they were not especially gladdened. I at least could observe that from aside.

Boder:
Now have you observed among the clergy or the Germans /in general/ that they felt a certain war guilt?

Ferdinansk:
/Pause./ That I could not ascertain exactly. But I believe that if one thinks broader /deeper/, that /then/ every man is in some way guilty of the deeds of his fellow man...

Boder:
Well...

Ferdinansk:
...and insofar they too have felt guilty.

Boder:
Now have you observed that there was a kind of a feeling that one has /they have/ to make good for that which one has /they have/ done to the world?

Ferdinansk:
That exactly I have not noticed, that it unconditionally could be made good.

Boder:
/As if correcting him:/ Must be made good.

Ferdinansk:
Or must. That I did not notice.

Boder:
Now tell me, for instance, this. We are now being asked in America to send clothes for the Germans. Isn't that so? And so much is being sent.

Ferdinansk:
Yes.

Boder:
Now, did the Germans themselves give everything that they could have given?

Ferdinansk:
For whom? For whom?

Boder:
For the poor Germans, and for the other dragged-away /vershlepte, a standard term in Germany/ people.

Ferdinansk:
No. Because the Germans have all the time truly mistreated the dragged-away, or us foreigners. And I as a theologian have always felt that very deeply, and had to carry with pains this whole misfortune for five, six years. Because on every step, whether I was in the monastery or at any magistracy, it was always given to me to understand that I was a foreigner and have nothing to do /expect/ here.

Boder:
Now tell me, for instance, why do you attend now the UNRRA University and don't go directly to a German university to study law?

Ferdinansk:
I know the Germans very well, and it would hurt me indeed should I have to seek refuge with them as I had to. Just for this reason I don't want /to have/ anything to do with the Germans.

Boder:
But you had...

Ferdinansk:
They were my enemies all the time. Because I know them well. I had the opportunity.

Boder:
/Some whispers./ Now where do you think then to practice law?

Ferdinansk:
Well, that is a question to which, for hte time being, I can't give any answer. At least...I hope at least that the time will be favorable, and that we in a few years will be able to return to our homeland.

Boder:
How do you imagine that? Do you think that the Russians will leave, or they will change for the better? Or...what do you think?

Ferdinansk:
Yes, that is my personal viewpoint, that the present situation could not prevail for long.

Boder:
In what sense?

Ferdinansk:
That means all...the political situation of the whole world.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
Because this is a transition from one state /of affairs/ to another.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
And as such it cannot last long. That is a /word not clear/, an eternal march forward. And I believe that by peaceful or militar means the possibility will be created for us to return to our homeland.

Boder:
Do you have any communication with your homeland? What do you hear from your...Do you have there...you had parents there, true?

Ferdinansk:
Yes, I had my parents in my homeland.

Boder:
When did you hear from them last?

Ferdinansk:
The communication with my parents was broken up in the year 1944, when the Russians stood /already/ at the Lithuanian border.../correction/ at the Estonian border, and all postal communication between Germany and Lithuania was broken.

Boder:
Hm.

Ferdinansk:
Since then I heard nothing from my parents. And I fear greatly that they are not alive any more.

Boder:
Is there no way of any kind to make contact, through the Red Cross, or in some other way?

Ferdinansk:
Even if there were, I would not try it.

Boder:
Yes?

Ferdinansk:
Because I am afraid to ask /tell/ my parents that I am alive and live at present in Germany, because then the Russians, or the communists, will come to see in my parents something they dislike.

Boder:
Now tell me, how are things here at the /UNRRA/ university?

Ferdinansk:
I am very enthusiastic about this university, and I give myself to it with my whole heart. But every start is difficult, and so the start at this university is very difficult. We also have very little money, scarce /study/ facilities, also no laboratories...

Boder:
How does it stand with books?

Ferdinansk:
Too, there is no library.

Boder:
Now you are a student. You study law. Do you study German law? Or what kind of law do you study?

Ferdinansk:
As jurists and students in the third or second semester, we usually study the introductions to law, that means Roman law.

Boder:
Yes.

Ferdinansk:
Introduction to law, sociology, general economics, statistics, and with it the general subjects which are common to all nationalities and nations.

Boder:
Now then, I am sorry we have to stop. I would like indeed to have every one of you for an hour or two, and probably that would have been better, but you see...I should have preferred to have two persons or three persons for three hours /each/ than each one /more people/ for half an hour. True? But since there are here /so many/ diverse groups, I don't want to hurt /offend/ anybody. True? And maybe I would be able to make a composite from the whole story /from all the stories/. True? My name shall remain here with your director in case you want to write to me sometime. I don't know whether I could do much, but I shall forward it /your letter/ to somebody who should be able to do something. It was indeed a pleasure to get to know you. Thank you, indeed.

Ferdinansk:
I thank you, too.

Note 1: Spool 153 follows directly and is the beginning of an interview with Valerius Michelson /see Chapter 64/.

Note 2: The limitation of the interview time to half an hour so that representatives of all groups at the UNRRA University could be interviewed in one afternoon was imposed by the management of the university.--DPB

--THIS IS THE END OF THE TEXT AS FOUND IN THE TRANSCRIBED VOLUME --