Boder:
France, September the 13th, 1946, at Henoville, 50 kilometers from Paris in a home maintained by the Aguda, together with the ORT. The principal inhabitants of this estate are a Khasidic group under the leadership of their rabbi, but they are rendering hospitality in a separate wing to a Yeshiva /orthodox rabbinical academy/ which has come over from Lithuania together with their rabbi. Note: He speaks Yiddish.

Boder:
How many people are there in this Yeshiva?

Ostland:
Twenty.

Boder:
But there are more coming.

Ostland:
So far there are twenty students in this Yeshiva but from day to day they expect another group to come in.

Boder:
I am now interviewing the rabbi of this group, Rabbi Isaac Ostland who is going to talk to us now. /Remark of the investigator made at the moment of translation in 1950: I suspect that this is an assumed name. The so-called infiltrees, that is the individuals who were running away from Lithuania and Poland or other regions which we are accustomed now to call the "iron curtain" states were behaving rather cautiously. They would not give their right names and not tell too much about how they managed to arrive in France, or for that matter in Switzerland or Italy./ And so, Rabbi, will you please tell us again in an orderly fashion where you are from, how old you are, and something about your family?

Ostland:
I was born 70 kilometers from Vilna, in a small town /called/ Labonar, in the year 1915. My father was the local rabbi and slaughterer. He sent me to study first to the great Yeshiva of Ponevezys with the Ponevezys Rabbi Caneman; afterwards in the great Yeshiva of Telsh under Rabbi Bloch whose son-in-law I have now become.

Boder:
Now, Rabbi, will you please tell me where you were and what happened to you when the war started?

Ostland:
When the war started I happened to arrive by accident with a group of Yeshiva people from the Yeshiva of Telsh in /the city of/ Telsh, because we had to abandon the hamlet Shiblovo where the Yeshiva of Telsh was located. We had to get out of there on account of significant events, so we arrived in Telsh. And from Telsh, on a Sunday, the day when the war started, we escaped to Krishek /I am not sure of the exact name/. There we found a second group of the Yeshiva of Telsh and from there we departed for Russia.

Boder:
Excuse me. Why did people have to go away from there?

Ostland:
There was a Polish Yeshiva in the hamlet Rasein /I am not sure of the name/ which the Soviets wanted to send away to Siberia. But the members of the Yeshiva dispersed into the neighboring hamlets and when they were unable, in gathering them together, to distinguish who are the Polish Yeshiva people and who are the Lithuanian /Yeshiva people/ we stood pat/ the expression apparently meant that "we would not betray them"/ and that is why we had to get away from there.

Boder:
Go on.

Ostland:
When we arrived in Telsh Sunday morning and hearing that war was declared by Hitler - cursed be his name - we all got terribly scared, we did not know what to do now. We, the young ones, have decided to run away to Russia but my father-in-law, the Rabbi of Telsh, with the other members of the Yeshiva remained unfortunately there. My wife too was there and she reports the following:

Boder:
Were you already married then?

Ostland:
No.

Boder:
No.

Ostland:
/She/ tells that on Friday evening all Jews were called together in Telsh near the lake /he did not pronounce clearly this word/. The German authorities called out...

Boder:
Near what, the river?

Ostland:
...the lake, and they called for somebody from the community who could speak German. The rabbi volunteered /declaring/ that he speaks German.

Boder:
Rabbi Bloch?

Ostland:
Rabbi Bloch. So that the rest should be able to understand what they were talking about. Rabbi Bloch bravely stepped forward from the /assembled/ congregation /one word not clear/. The German representative reproached him that the Jews were sniping through the windows at the Germans, and for that reason the Jews are being threatened with severe punishment. Rabbi Bloch endeavored strongly to prove the meaninglessness of such an accusation; he explained how alien such action is to the Jews. There occurred some other incident in the negotiations but that was not reported to the community. When Rabbi Bloch returned from the negotiations to the congregation there took place a little meeting of the heads of the community...

Boder:
/The last two words were given in Hebrew and the interviewer asked for their meaning./

Ostland:
That means the representatives /of the Jewish inhabitants/ of the city.

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
As a result of this meeting Rabbi Bloch presented himself before the community and talked to them in very severe terms and demanded from the community penitence. He explained that the only means to be saved in such a moment is a miracle. /the last two words are in Hebrew, I am not sure of the correct translation/. There is no natural way /to salvation/. He demanded from the community that they mend their ways with reference to three things; to preserve the purity of the family life, to observe the Sabbath, and to observe the dietary laws. This proposal was accepted by the community, and all like one, the pious and the free /thinkers/, children and old ones, men and women, have resolved immediately to go through with it.

Boder:
Which three things /the interviewer did not understand clearly the three Hebrew terms/?

Ostland:
The Sabbath, the dietary laws, and pure family life.

Boder:
/The interviewer understood now the first two terms but inquired about the third one/.

Ostland:
/Translating/ pure family life.

Boder:
Yes. Now continue.

Ostland:
And then for no reason known to us there was all at once deferred the terrible sentence over the Jewish community of Telsh, which they had doomed to be exterminated; but the Germans permitted the women to go home immediately, while the men had to remain there overnight and afterwards they were led to a lager /camp/ and for the time being nothing was done to them. The morning after they also called together the women and led them away to a different lager. The first lager, the one for the men, was located 4 kilometers from the city of Telsh. It was called Gerul, and the second lager was called Raim /the name is not clear/.

Boder:
What were these lagers, back yards?

Ostland:
A kind of a farm. There they held the men for two weeks and during this time the three vows which they have pledged were not complied with and their doom was sealed /I am not sure of the correct translation of the last two worlds given in Hebrew/. In two weeks, it was on that gruesome day of Tammuz /a midsummer month of the Jewish calendar, usually the hottest month of the mid-European summer/ the men were assembled one evening, and they were submitted to horrible, horrible torture. They cut off their beards and they forced the older people to dance the "devils dance," they called it, and tortured and tormented them to the brink of death.

Boder:
Who did this?

Ostland:
The Germans with the Lithuanian partisans.

Boder:
Ah, the Germans together with the Lithuanian partisans.

Ostland:
With the Lithuanian partisans.

Boder:
Go on.

Ostland:
They were informed that that was their last day, that they have time to live until next morning. The next morning...

Boder:
Who told you that?

Ostland:
/as if continuing the sentence/ ...that was done by those terrible criminals who were standing around there, the Germans and the Lithuanians together.

Boder:
But who told you all that:

Ostland:
My wife, the daughter of Rabbi Bloch, Khaje.

Boder:
And how did she know about it, she wasn't with the men?

Ostland:
Yes... the children. She as a child of Rabbi Bloch... the children were then still with the men.

Boder:
So. And the women were kept separate?

Ostland:
The women were kept separately. They were made to get up at five o'clock in the morning under the pretext that they are being taken to work, but it was already known what kind of work expected them. Crowded by murderers they were led out about 200 meters from the lager and there began the terrible shootings at which my wife was already not present but the screams and the outcries of the shooting were heard in the lager where she was.

Boder:
Who were taken, all men?

Ostland:
All men.

Boder:
And they left the children:

Ostland:
They left the children but the men were shot near the ditch /common grave/. And one of these people who saved himself from among the men told later how from the ditch where Rabbi Bloch was lying, one heard the cry, "Sma Ysreil" /Hear, O Israel/, because it was before daybreak, the time for Krishma /a special prayer for that hour/, so he still recited the Krishma and his soul departed on the word Aekhod /the full sentence of the prayer reads: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one"/. The same thing happened the next day, caph aleph /the 21st/. That part of the men whom they had not managed to shoot caph Tammuz[Footnote: The tenth month of the Jewish calendar.] /the 20th of Tammuz/ they shot on caph aleph Tammuz /the 21st/. The women who were in the second lager, that is 16 kilometers from Telsh...

Boder:
Do I understand that they have taken the children with the men and the women separately?

Ostland:
The women were afterwards reunited with the children.

Boder:
But from the start? /He talks at the same time as the interviewer and one cannot clearly understand what he is saying. The interviewees are often irritated by questions and do not permit the interviewer to finish the question but just talk simultaneously with him./ So at the start the children were with the men and the women were alone?

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
Go on.

Ostland:
After a certain time has elapsed they came to the lager of the women and counted them up. The older ones and the very young ones they separated on one side and the young ones, that is the ones able to work...it became obvious immediately that those who are able to work have been granted a little bit more time to live and that those unfit for work are already doomed. My wife managed to extract her mother from among the unable to work into the group of able to work. And for that reason her mother with her other sisters returned to Telsh where there was created a ghetto which existed for a few months longer. During this time some of the younger ones and energetic ones managed to slip out of the ghetto, to hide among the Christians. They managed to live through the several years of war with them and those who remained alive are already by now...some of them in the land of Israel and some of them are in Poland.

Boder:
How did they hide among the Christians, with Aryan papers?

Ostland:
With Jewish papers, because there could be found... although very few Christian families who were able to appraise the significance of saving a Jewish life. There were some who saved them with the purpose to convert to Christianity the children, and they did so later on...

Boder:
So.

Ostland:
... and that is the purpose why they saved them... but later of course, when the war was over the children were returned to the Jewish faith and remained pure and fine Jews.

Boder:
Well, no let's return to the beginning. Where were you, and what happened to you?

Ostland:
Now, I myself was in Russia. For about four weeks...

Boder:
How did you get away?

Ostland:
We came with a group of people from the Yeshiva of Telsh as far as the city of Mitau, a city in Latvia...

Boder:
Oh yes, Mitau in Kurland.

Ostland:
Yes. We arrived on foot, there we found ready echelons on which we embarked and within ten days we arrived in the province of Kirov.

Boder:
For whom were the echelons?

Ostland:
For the population who wanted to be evacuated.

Boder:
Yes, then they were evacuation trains. How were you treated during the evacuation?

Ostland:
During the evacuation..we had something with us and en route others had to suffer a bit because things could not be properly arranged right from the start but as we got deeper into Russia the preparations /to receive us/ were better.

Boder:
But they did not take away from you your things?

Ostland:
We had no things with us because we abandoned our things en route, because it was hard on the way to Mitau, marching on foot so we had to abandon all our things and we traveled without anything.

Boder:
What kind of railroad cars were they?

Ostland:
They were freight cars.

Boder:
But they were kept open?

Ostland:
Open.

Boder:
You could have air, you were permitted to go out?

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
You were able to go out, you could step out to satisfy your needs, you did not have to do it in the cars?

Ostland:
No. We would stop at stations and we could do everything satisfactory.

Boder:
And you traveled to Kirov?

Ostland:
To the province of Kirov where we got to a little town, a village Vecheva. And there we got together a group of sixteen Yeshiva people with the whole /inventory of/ Yeshiva.

Boder:
Excuse me, the province of Kirov, what was that before?

Ostland:
Vyatka.

Boder:
Oh, the province of Vyatka, go on.

Ostland:
There we, the sixteen people of the Yeshiva, have decided to work in a forest so that we could be separated from our Christian comrades, in order that we should be able to observe the Jewish rituals...

Boder:
But you were working?

Ostland:
We were working. We were working in a forest doing very hard work on lumber. And in general not being accustomed to physical work away from the /books of/ Talmud, it was very hard for us. We lost a lot of strength. And we remained there until Sukkoth /the autumn Feast of the Tabernacles/, observing all the Jewish traditions, dietary laws, and observance of the Sabbath. But in time we began to suffer, we had to get away from there because our physical strength did not permit us to remain at such hard labor.

Boder:
Did you have with you the /volumes of/ Talmud, did you have /with you/ any books?

Ostland:
No, no books. We only studied--we had with us a little Tanakh-Pentateuch, Prophets and Writings. And there were some among us who knew /the scripture/ by heart, so we held every Saturday conferences reciting the words of the Bible or the scriptures which we knew by heart.

Boder:
So.

Ostland:
And every day we had a /set/ time for study, and we prayed three times a day.

Boder:
The Russians permitted it?

Ostland:
The Russians were not with us at all. We managed to find definite time that would not interfere with the work.

Boder:
But you worked for the Russians?

Ostland:
We worked for the Russians, for the authorities.

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
We were able to observe the Sabbath because we worked on Sunday.

Boder:
So they demonstrated religious tolerance?

Ostland:
They did not bother us and also permitted us to choose our own day of rest.

Boder:
So... well, but you worked for the government, did you get any pay?

Ostland:
The pay consisted of our food which we were given, our working clothes and the lodging and the tools for work which we needed...

Boder:
Now, tell me one thing. You told me that they permitted you to observe the dietary laws; what kind of kosher food were you getting?

Ostland:
We ate no meat. We only cooked grits, vegetables which were given to us and that was our nourishment.

Boder:
So. Go on. How long did this last?

Ostland:
That was going on until Sukkoth.

Boder:
How many months?

Ostland:
Two months.

Boder:
Yes, and then...

Ostland:
Afterwards, seeing that that was too hard for us, some of our people, the older ones, departed for Almata in search for another place /a long pause/. When we arrived there--the messages which we sent to our group as we learned later were not received by them, they could not receive any word from us, our contact was broken and they decided to depart by themselves.

Boder:
Who, the older ones?

Ostland:
The group that remained behind.

Boder:
You were among the older ones which departed first?

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
Go on...they departed...

Ostland:
They departed.

Boder:
And where did they go?

Ostland:
They departed and at the time we had no contact with them. Not until later when we obtained information through Buguruslan /a city/ through which they cleared all the evacuated. And from there we got information about two comrades, three comrades. These were Chaim Stein, Meyer Karonovitz, Meyer Zeligman. Then we also received the sad information about the other ten persons who were not alive any more. The reports were as follows: passing near Bukhara--there reigned at that time a terrible epidemic and suffering from hunger--they unfortunately could not by-pass it, and they perished from various diseases.

Boder:
But the Russians let them go? Did they let them go or did they run away?

Ostland:
They ran away.

Boder:
Well. And you, how many of the elders were you who departed /before/?

Ostland:
There were three of us. And we too for various reasons were forced to become separated, due to the difficulties with transportation. It was prohibited to travel from one place to another and that is how we became separated.

Boder:
Go on.

Ostland:
Among those who died there were: Hertz Jachnin, Boruch Baron, Friedman, Michael Kron, Isaac Brutzvik /I am not sure of the last name/.

Boder:
/after a pause/ And where did you go?

Ostland:
We found ourselves in East Kasakstan.

Boder:
Who do you mean by we?

Ostland:
The older comrades: Rosenband, Karanovich, and Bar /I am not sure whether he has not given inadvertently his real name among the three./

Boder:
Well, so you reached Kasakstan?

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
Where is Kasakstan?

Ostland:
Kasakstan is in the east, it borders Siberia.

Boder:
So. Well.

Ostland:
There we spent two years. We went through /he apparently corrects himself/ three years time and we went through all the hardships which the Russian people went through, especially the evacuees, which was still harder for religious people. Still I was able to observe dietary laws, the Sabbath, and all the Jewish laws; naturally with great, great difficulties. Very rarely were there people who could stick it out. In the year 44...

Boder:
Now, in these three years, what were you doing? Did you report to the Russians for work?

Ostland:
I worked, worked all the time.

Boder:
What kind of work did you do?

Ostland:
I was occupied in all kind of labor. I had to work in a kolhkhoz, I had to work in a labor gang, over water, fishing, floating logs...

Boder:
H-um.

Ostland:
... all kinds of labor, I went through everything that there was.

Boder:
And where did one live?

Ostland:
That varied. This is a question which is difficult to answer in one word.

Boder:
Yes, I understand. But where did you live? Let's talk about you. As I understand it, you worked for the Russians, all right. Did you live in a private home? Did you live in barracks? Where did you...

Ostland:
While in the kolkhoz I lived in the dormitories.

Boder:
Oh, you lived in a kolkhoz /apparently the interviewer did not notice this statement by Ostland before; such things of course happen in non-directive interviews where the interview is being recorded and one expects to hear it later from the recording/.

Ostland:
And while with the labor gang /I lived/ in a private home.

Boder:
Did you work in the kolkhoz together with Christians?

Ostland:
Together with Christians.

Boder:
And how did they behave towards you?

Ostland:
Being there the only Jew, perfectly strange and unfamiliar to them, and being a deeply religious Jew which they haven't seen already for 25 years, they developed towards me a relationship as to a stranger who has nothing in common with them. They could not understand me, they could not comprehend /my behavior/, they knew that here was a stranger with whom they have nothing in common. I did not suffer from anti-Semitism, except, naturally, the young ones bothered me somewhat. But the old ones...

Boder:
Did you keep your beard?

Ostland:
I kept my beard all the time /that of course could not be of great importance in Russia where most of the peasants wear long beards/.

Boder:
And you prayed with your prayer shawl and phylacteries?[Footnote: Two receptacles with long thin leather strips attached; the receptacles contain excerpts from Biblical texts; they are worn during the morning prayer, one on the forehead and the other on the arm.]

Ostland:
I prayed only with phylacteries, without a prayer shawl.

Boder:
Where was your prayer shawl?

Ostland:
The prayer shawl was lost on the way.

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
And the phylacteries I got from somebody else.

Boder:
Yes, go on. /A pause/ And this lasted three years, your stay in Kosakstan?

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
Did you meet there any other Jews?

Ostland:
In Kosakstan I met also Russian Jews, a Jew from Lebavichi, who distinguished himself by his devotion to Jewish traditions, and many other kinds of Jews.

Boder:
And so, what happened then?

Ostland:
In the year 44, being mobilized in the army, in the Lithuanian army...

Boder:
How come in the Lithuanian army? You were in Kosakstan...

Ostland:
The Soviet army proceeded with the mobilization and they sent them away to the Lithuanian division which was created and was already stationed at that time in Lithuania.

Boder:
Oh, you were sent back?

Ostland:
That happened already after the liberation of Lithuania.

Boder:
So you were mobilized for the Lithuanian /army/?

Ostland:
We were mobilized and sent to Lithuania...

Boder:
Were you equipped with soldiers uniforms...?

Ostland:
No, no uniforms, /I went/ in civilian clothes. They only gave me the papers and I was granted already all the privileges of a soldier. I was given provisions on the road, a railroad ticket...everything. But in Novosibirsk--since that city had no rabbi at the time--I was invited there as rabbi which status I held already from before...and thanks to this rabbinical certificates from Novosibirsk where I spent three months time I was subsequently discharged from service by the Lithuanian army in Vilna.

Boder:
Where is Novosibirsk?

Ostland:
It is a big city in Russia which had at that time about 30,000 Jews evacuated from all over Russia.

Boder:
Did you have a rabbinical certificate from before?

Ostland:
From before the war.

Boder:
And you are also a slaughterer?

Ostland:
No, I am not a slaughterer.

Boder:
So you had a rabbinical certificate and in Novosibirsk the community initiated you as their rabbi...

Ostland:
As rabbi.

Boder:
Tell me, don't they still have in Russia like in the olden times an official rabbi and a /spiritual rabbi/...

Ostland:
No, that does not exist any more.

Boder:
Does not exist any more...so where are the newborn Jewish children registered?

Ostland:
They are being registered in the general registry.

Boder:
Do they inscribe in Russia one's religion in the passport?

Ostland:
No, not at all, no religion /is being registered/.

Boder:
They don't register one's religion?

Ostland:
No religion, /just/ nationality is registered.

Boder:
Oh, they register one "nationality-Jewish?...

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
...but they don't register the religion?

Ostland:
No.

Boder:
So you were initiated there as rabbi. Did they hold you back from the army? If you were a soldier...

Ostland:
I had a rabbinical certificate from before and thanks to this rabbinical certificate...

Boder:
You went then to Vilna?

Ostland:
I went then to Vilna and was there discharged. And then the community of Vilna--being in need of a rabbi--made representations to the authorities that I be not sent back to Novosibirsk, to my previous post.

Boder:
Yes...

Ostland:
But that I be permitted to remain in Vilna.

Boder:
So...

Ostland:
And they consented, and I remained in Vilna, and lived there for a year's time until I departed for Poland.

Boder:
So... how did you manage...?

Ostland:
During the year I remained in Vilna, we managed to re-erect a prayer house, we repaired the Choral Synagogue of Vilna at the cost of 50,000...

Boder:
Zloty /unit of Polish currency/...

Ostland:
...rubles /Russian unit of currency/. We organized again ritual slaughtering...

Boder:
The Choral Synagogue was in a basement, one had to step down a few steps...? Oh, no, the Choral Synagogue was on Zavalnya Street.

Ostland:
Zavalnya Street...

Boder:
That was built years ago by Smaya Levin.

Ostland:
Very possible, times ago.

Boder:
Berstein, who wrote Atiquo /the Zionist anthem/ was there the cantor.

Ostland:
Was there the cantor.

Boder:
Go on.

Ostland:
Why only the Choral Synagogue: Because of all 170 prayer houses which existed in the city of Vilna there remained only one on the German Street number 19 /the name of German Street was an old name of one of the important streets of the city of Vilna since olden times/ only this one was left intact by the Germans.

Boder:
And the others?

Ostland:
All the others are destroyed.

Boder:
The whole "synagogue yard" /the city of Vilna had several blocks occupied by numerous synagogues of various congregations, as far as I remember surrounded by a general fence, and that section was called the "synagogue yard"/?

Ostland:
Everything, the "synagogue yard" with the old city synagogue and with the synagogues of the whole city.

Boder:
Didn't they convert the "Synagogue yard" into a ghetto?

Ostland:
Yes, there were two ghettos in Vilna. One ghetto was located between the Zavalnya Street and the German Street; the other which was located in the "synagogue yard" existed only for a few months, until the Day of Atonement, when it was liquidated. The second ghetto existed until about a year before liberation.

Boder:
Go on.

Ostland:
In the synagogue on the German Street number 19, where the community was re-established after liberation... about this there is an interesting story to tell.

Boder:
Go on. Tell me first some other minor events and about this you will tell me when I change the spool so that you will not be interrupted.

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
Now then, I want to know, Vilna has become again /a part of/ Lithuania?

Ostland:
Lithuania.

Boder:
Lithuania. And how many Jews did you find there approximately?

Ostland:
There we found altogether about 450 Jews who have managed to hide in the environs of Vilna with the Christians. Or /they were hidden/ in malines, in hideouts, in caves...

Boder:
What are "malines?"

Ostland:
"Malines" means a hideout under ground /here the words under ground must be understood literally, meaning under the surface of the earth./

Boder:
The word is of Hebrew[Footnote: In speaking Yiddish to Mr. Ostland, the interviewer used unawares to himself the English word "Hebrew" which Ostland apparently did not understand. This obviously accounts for the confusion in this section of the dialog.] origin. From what word does it originate?

Ostland:
That I don't know.

Boder:
I have been told that it comes from the Hebrew word "malone" which is supposed to mean hiding; they told me it was a Hebrew word.

Ostland:
A Hebrew word meaning hiding.

Boder:
And they have made of it a Russian word "maline" which is a berry, a fruit.

Ostland:
Well, with this synagogue on the German Street happened the following.

Boder:
Wait a minute. This concludes spool 125 /later designated as spool 125-B/ of which part is the interview with Mr. Gutman and part with Rabbi Ostland/ I apparently have been confusing his name, calling him at time Ostland and at times Ostman/. Henoville, near Paris, about 50 kilometers from Paris, September the 13th, 1946, in a home shared by the Aguda with a small group of a Yeshiva from Lithuania. An Illinois Institute of Technology wire recording.

/The introduction to spool 126 practically repeats the statement at the end of the transcription of spool 125. It gives the place, the combination of the Aguda with the ORT and the hospitality accorded to the Yeshiva./

Boder:
And so Rabbi, you told me that there is an important story to tell about Vilna. Start, talk into the microphone, don't hurry, you talk as long as you wish.

Ostland:
On the Saturday, "Section Bechuckotay"[Footnote: Levitious XXVI: 3--XXVII: 34. For Saturday reading, the Pentatecuh is divided into 53 sections.] /as is often the custom, he designates a particular Saturday by the Section from the Torah which is being read on that Saturday/ and while they were in the process of recitation /of the Torah/...

Boder:
On what Saturday was that?

Ostland:
"Section Bechuckotay," of the year 41, when the Germans were already in Vilna...

Boder:
And what do you call that Saturday?

Ostland:
When "Section Bechuckotay" is being recited.

Boder:
Oh!

Ostland:
...that is the Section which contains the "Takhakho."[Footnote: "Takhakho" means "admonition." There are two "Takhakhos" in the Pentateuch, one in Leviticus XXVI: 14-46, and the other in Deuteronomy XXVIII: 15-26. Both "Takhakhos" contain the maledictions and threats of most unspeakable suffering which were to come over the Children of Israel if they should "not hearken unto the voice of the Lord...to observe to do all His commandments." An analysis of the cardinal difference between the two "Takhakhos" is given in Footnote 7.]

Boder:
Oh, in what month is that?

Ostland:
That is about in the 12th month of the Jewish calendar.

Boder:
Give me the month in Hebrew, the Hebrew...

Ostland:
At the end of the summer... Excuse me, not "Section Bechuckotay" but Section Ki Tahbo." <*Deuteronomy XXVI: 1--XXIX: 8.*>

Boder:
Aha!

Ostland:
"Section Ki Tahbo" may come out in Elul.

Boder:
In Elul, before Rosh Hashana.

Ostland:
Before Rosh Hashana.

Boder:
When they blow already the Shophar. Are we not also in the month Elul?

Ostland:
Yes, we are now in Elul, and this Saturday also "Section Bechuckotay"[Footnote: In spite of the spontaneous correction which he made a few sentences before, Rabbi Ostland commits again the same slip of the tongue (of apparently Freudian nature), giving "Bechuckotay" instead of "Ki Tahbo." Could it be that for him personally the highpoint of German violence came with the deportation so vividly described in "Bechuckotay," It suffices to quote only one verse from "Takhakho Bechuckotay" which expresses by no means the most extreme of the depredations that were to come over the Children of Israel if they should fail to observe the teachings of the Torah: "And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute the vengeance of the covenant; and ye shall be gathered together within your cities; and I will send the Pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy." (Leviticus XXVI: 25) In general "Takhakho Ki Tahbo" lists the "mortal sins" while "Takhakho Bechuckotay" gives the most detailed aspects of punishment by catastrophe. Both the tendency to suppress even the thought of such sings referring in large measure to sex perversions on the one hand, while on the other hand the memories of the German inhumanities did not cease to haunt them, may also account for this repeated substitution of "Bechuckotay" for "Ki Tahbo." No wonder that Rabbi Ostland, as well as his father-in-law, Rabbi Bloch, as so many pious Jews, were struck by the vivid resemblance between the castastrophe brought upon them by the Germans who evoked into reality above any measure, most of the macabre prophecies of the "Takhakho Bechuckotay."] is being read.

Boder:
So, it was like at this time?

Ostland:
Yes. So in the middle of the services all Jews were taken from the house of prayer as they were in midst of the recitation of the Torah, and everything was left; the Bibles open, even the Torah with the point at its side /a small stick to point at the lines and words during reading/, and the house of prayer was sealed and the Jews led away. They put a seal on the door of the house of prayer. And things remained that way until the day when Vilna was again liberated...

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
...a group of Jewish respected citizens entered the place with the most reverend Rabbi Gutman and they found everything untouched. The holy Torah was lying on the pulpit with the finger-marks of the reader on the Torah and the pointer, that is how they found it. That was the only synagogue in all Vilna.

Boder:
What was the synagogue on the German Street?

Ostland:
On the German Street number 19, which by a miracle has remained intact from all the 107 synagogues, which once existed in Vilna.

Boder:
Oh...

Ostland:
And this /the salvation of one single synagogue/ offered the possibility to rebuild again a Jewish religious life. The few Bibles which were found in that synagogue, the holy Torahs and in general all the things that a congregation needs for its existence.

Boder:
Tell me, excuse the interruption, what books are you using here at present? Are these new books?

Ostland:
No, these are books the Talmud and other religious Tomes /he enumerates the various sections of the scriptures and commentaries and Hebrew/ ...

Boder:
How did you manage to bring them over? How...

Ostland:
These were obtained from Poland from Lodz. In Lodz were found large stores of sacred books.

Boder:
Aha. Then they did not print new ones here?

Ostland:
Here not yet, but abroad /books/ are being printed. In Switzerland, in the land of Israel; we also received a great deal of books from America.

Boder:
Yes, because I have seen some of them look entirely like new.

Ostland:
New, these are from abroad.

Boder:
From abroad. Now let us continue.

Ostland:
And so in this synagogue and the adjoining room was founded in 1944 the Jewish congregation of Vilna and through this began the reconstruction of a new Jewish life in Vilna.

Boder:
Do you remember any names in the parish council?

Ostland:
The rabbi then was Rabbi Gutman, the shohet was Mr. Farber.

Boder:
Yes?

Ostland:
Afterwards there was a second one, a younger one- Lieberman.

Boder:
Ah...

Ostland:
And the other members of the parish council were Stein, and Sapirstein was the secretary.

Boder:
Yes, was there among them a certain Zalkind?

Ostland:
/After a pause/ No.

Boder:
No /the interviewer asked about a very prominent family in Vilna/. Well, go on.

Ostland:
Now the city synagogue suffered only on the outside. The inside was still intact.

Boder:
Which- The Choral Synagogue or the city /synagogue/?

Ostland:
The city synagogue in the synagogue court.

Boder:
Oh, that is the large synagogue where before /now they talk both at the same time/ the cantor Sirota was singing.

Ostland:
Yes, that is the synagogue has continued to exist already for about 500 years in Vilna.

Ostland:
It was decided to hold services that Rosh Hashana in that synagogue and we held our services in that synagogue.

Boder:
Will you excuse me, please. I have still another question. You see, I know Vilna.

Ostland:
Certainly.

Boder:
What happened to the cemetery where the Vilna Saint was buried? /The words used here were: The Gaon of Vilna, which means not exactly saint, but a great rabbi with prestige equivalent to the Christian saint./ Was this cemetery spared?

Ostland:
I shall tell you about it later. But now, this synagogue, this old city synagogue was still on the inside intact. But in the middle of the winter due to a castastrophe with two railroad trains /He apparently is returning now to an episode that happened during the time of that German occupation. In general his statements here are becoming somewhat incoherent./ which collided on the tracks, there was a great uproar in the city in which all those who were at the station became victims, and the city in general suffered and that is how it/ the synagogue/ was destroyed.

Boder:
H-um.

Ostland:
Now, as to your inquiry about the cemetery, it was like this: In Vilna there was the old cemetery, /the next few words are not clear/ the one that had the new fence, which was erected not long ago. This one /the fence/ was broken through in several places and there were dug for military purposes trenches and it was desecrated very badly. On the day when we arrived we visited the cemetery, and our hearts ached.

Boder:
The old cemetery?

Ostland:
The old cemetery, and our hearts ached because it was such a sacred cemetery on which there was buried "The Saint" /Here follow a few words in Hebrew and I cannot establish whether he mentions the name of another venerated person or if it refers to the first saint/ and other very famous men. And to find it in such a horrible state. All our efforts to fence it in again, and to throw out all the extraneous rubble which the former armies left there were for the time being, in vain, and the cemetery still remained in a terrible, regretable state.

Boder:
H-um.

Ostland:
Now, the second cemetery, the one that was called the cemetery "Across the River" on which Chaim Eisner /the name is not clear/ was buried... on this cemetery it appears the Germans also did not let the dead rest. They took away the tombstones, the monuments which were erected there, a large part of them, the better ones were transported to Germany, for the purpose of paving the streets with these tombstones.

Boder:
Oh? Go on.

Ostland:
And in general it was destroyed and excavated. And in spite of all the efforts to establish order in Vilna, all our labors brought very little results. Like in those times there still take place maneuvers, military maneuvers and the destruction continues /I am not sure of the last few words/. Now about the other things. When afterwards the congregation began to grow in Vilna when the number of Jews increased, it became too crowded in number 19 German Street and it was decided to move to Zavalnya Street 35 to the Choral Synagogue. There we found two rooms adjoining the Choral Synagogue. There we established the congregation and after Rabbi Gutman left the town when he departed for Poland, we took over the rabbinate; also the shohets changed /in membership and personnel/. The parish developed rather well. It devoted itself to social service and it distributed during the course of the one summer '45- /the congregation/ distributed up to 100,000 rubles for the poor, for those who returned from lagers, for strangers who arrived. The parish also devoted itself with the reestablishment of Jewish life /I am not sure of the translation/. They established a wide correspondence for the communication from friend to friend and other important work. At the end of '45 there were in Vilna already nearly 17,000 Jews. But unfortunately, there was no need in Vilna for more than one single house of prayer. There could be no more than one single assembly for prayer in the whole city of Vilna.

Boder:
But there were other prayer houses?

Ostland:
Yes, prayer houses, but there remained unfortunately very few pious people. The newcomers were to taken by their work that the working conditions did not permit the attendance of services.

Boder:
Ah...

Ostland:
One cannot get to services if the hours of work are established from 8 or from 9 o'clock so it is impossible to come to services. On the Sabbath also no larger attendance could be present at services because of the necessity of work.

Boder:
H-um.

Ostland:
Have you any other questions?

Boder:
Now then, you have remained in Vilna, as the rabbi of Vilna.

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
How long did you remain there?

Ostland:
For one year until February, '45 /correcting himself/ until February, '46.

Boder:
And why did you leave Vilna?

Ostland:
As a Polish, a Polish-Vilna citizen from the province of Vilna...

Boder:
Yes...

Ostland:
I had the right to travel.

Boder:
The Russians then permitted...?

Ostland:
They evacuated the Polish citizens, they evacuated from all over Russia.

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
So they were evacuated from all Russia and also from the Vilna region.

Boder:
Yes... So then you were traveling to Poland in a perfectly legal fashion?

Ostland:
Yes...

Boder:
Why did you leave? Why did you not want to remain in Vilna?

Ostland:
In Vilna there were no prospects for religious people to be able to adjust morally in the spirit of the Scripture.

Boder:
H-um? So you departed... Now tell me, you arrived where?

Ostland:
I arrived in Poland... from Poland to Prague, and from Prague to Paris.

Boder:
Wait a moment. You came to Poland. Where did you go in Poland.

Ostland:
To Lodz.

Boder:
To Lodz. And why did you not remain in Lodz?

Ostland:
Because there are taking place terrible anti-Semitic onslaughts against the Jews, that occur in Poland, which make it impossible nowadays to live there /a few words not clear/.

Boder:
Now tell me how do you explain it? The Poles were freed from Fascism...

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
They cooperate with the Russians.

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
So how... where does the anti-Semitism come from there? The Russians did not demonstrate anti-Semitism against you... How does it come about there?

Ostland:
This is still the "gospel" from the plants which the Hitler followers have sowed in their time.

Boder:
And nothing can be done about it.

Ostland:
The authorities make great efforts, but it is impossible to re-educate the people.

Boder:
And the Polish intelligentsia?

Ostland:
The Polish intelligentsia also accepts it.

Boder:
Accepts what? /pause/ What do they accept?

Ostland:
Anti-Semitism.

Boder:
Anti-Semitism. Now then, how did you assemble your group, and how did you get away?

Ostland:
This group of Yeshiva people who are here today.

Boder:
Where did they come from?

Ostland:
They are the ones who returned from Russia. They are from the many yeshivas which the Soviets have evacated previously, a week before the war, a week before the war they were evacuated into Russia, to Siberia.

Boder:
Yes...

Ostland:
Part of these remained /alive/, those who still have the strength to withstand all the sufferings, all the lagers in Siberia, with starvation, with epidemics--these remained. From these remained about 300 yeshiva people and another 100 persons, members of their families. They are now in Prague, and we expect them shortly here in France. For the moment we have here a small group, about 15 students /?/ from among the younger ones who have already arrived in France.

Boder:
They are not the same whom you knew there...?

Ostland:
From those who left with me together for Russia only a small number, six people, have remained--from the sixteen.

Boder:
And they are...?

Ostland:
Three are already here--and three are still in Prague?

Boder:
And they will come?

Ostland:
They will come.

Boder:
So you know them from there. Now, what are you doing here all day and what are your plans?

Ostland:
Now it is like this. It is our duty...since from all the survivors who still are capable to appreciate...

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
...the significance of all the events, we know that it is our task to spread as much as possible the Torah among the Jewish people, and to spread Judaism as much as possible among the Jewish people. We disregard /the fact/ that we already have the possibility to go to America; and since for the time being we are able to accomplish something in France, we endeavor with all our strength to redeem, to bring up the children who have fallen into Christian hands during the course of the war, and even those who before the war have not learned the traditions of Judaism and the Torah of the Lord of the Universe, and these we endeavor nowadays to bring up in the spirit of the Torah. This is the whole mission, the whole ideal of all those who have remained alive.

Boder:
Then you are not going to the Land of Israel?

Ostland:
Our road, our destination is for the time uncertain.

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
...but for the time being we have devoted ourselves to educational work here in France.

Boder:
Who supports the Yeshiva?

Ostland:
The Yeshiva draws its support from many institutions. The main savior of the Yeshiva was the Vaad Hazolah.

Boder:
Vadda Ha....

Ostland:
Vaad Ha Hazolah, which...

Boder:
How do you spell it?

Ostland:
Vaad Ha Hazolah...

Boder:
Two vov's /vaus; the spelling proceeds in Hebrew letters/?

Ostland:
Yes, /correcting/ one vov.

Boder:
Go on.

Ostland:
'ayin,

Boder:
'ayin,

Ostland:
'daleth,

Boder:
'daleth,

Ostland:
cheth,

Boder:
cheth,

Ostland:
sadhe,

Boder:
Is that one word?

Ostland:
Two words.

Boder:
Oh, that is...sadhe,

Ostland:
lameth,

Boder:
lameth,

Ostland:
cheth,

Boder:
cheth. Vaad Hazolah... What does it mean, Vaad Hazolah?

Ostland:
That is an organization, especially formed to save those Jews who could be found in Russia or in Germany.

Boder:
Is that a new organization?

Ostland:
That is an organization founded during the time of the war, under the leadership of the famous director of the Yeshiva of Kletsh, Rabbi Aaron /last name not clear/...

Boder:
Ah! And where is he?

Ostland:
He is in America.

Boder:
Ah! And that is the Vaad Hazolah?

Ostland:
Yes,...

Boder:
And the other organizations which support...?

Ostland:
And then there are still other organizations which are lending assistance. Nowadays here in France we are helped by other various organizations.

Boder:
Aha! Now there are them among you such who will go to America, and such who will go to other countries.

Ostland:
Yes. It is self-evident that the further road cannot be the same for everybody.

Boder:
H-um.

Ostland:
In general... there has been created now an organization which is called the "Spreader /?/ of the Torah," which devotes itself especially to the spreading of the Torah, and founding of yeshivas, be it in European countries, be it in African countries, and in America as well. Part of those who are arriving now, will depart for America to develop there their yeshivas, and the remaining part will probably go to other countries.

Boder:
Now, and you personally, where do you intend to go?

Ostland:
I personally am being called by my family which resides in Cleveland...who have founded there the famous American Yeshiva, the famous Yeshiva of Telsh in Cleveland and from there I am requested to come.

Boder:
Now wait a moment. Your in-law was the...

Ostland:
My father-in-law, the rabbi of Telsh.

Boder:
Where is he?

Ostland:
Who perished in Telsh.

Boder:
...Telsh, yes /they talk almost simultaneously/.

Ostland:
There has survived a brother, the Reverend /one name not clear/ Meyer Bloch, the shepherd of the Yeshiva of Telsh in Cleveland.

Boder:
Oh, that is his brother.

Ostland:
...together with his former brother-in-law, Rabbi /first name not clear/ Katz, and his father-in-law, the Rabbi Sirotski, and the father-in-law of his brother /name not clear/ --they run the yeshiva.

Boder:
Aha! How soon will you be in Cleveland?

Ostland:
In the near future.

Boder:
In a few months?

Ostland:
In a few months, I hope.

Boder:
And who will remain here with the Yeshiva?

Ostland:
Here with the Yeshiva from Prague will remain the leaders who directed the Yeshiva still from before the war /this states is somewhat confused/.

Boder:
Well, maybe we shall see each other yet in America.

Ostland:
God willing.

Boder:
One may get to Cleveland some day. Now tell me something about your wife. Where did you meet her? Where was she, and what happened to her?

Ostland:
She was in the same ghetto of which we talked before...so her mother with others of her family were sent to the ghetto of Siauliai /Shavli/. In the ghetto of Siauliai they were until the liquidation of the Siauliai ghetto, when they were all shipped away to Germany.

Boder:
H-um...and where in Germany were they sent?

Ostland:
In Germany they suffered through various lagers.

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
...and of the whole family remained only two: Khaje Bloch, that is the daughter...my wife, the daughter of the rabbi of Telsh...

Boder:
Yes.

Ostland:
...and her cousin, Naomi Bloch, the daughter of the Telsh /two words not clear/ Mr. Salman.

Boder:
And the mother of your wife?

Ostland:
The mother, alas, perished in Telsh.

Boder:
She perished in Telsh?

Ostland:
In Telsh.

Boder:
/hesitantly/ How come?

Ostland:
She was caught. After she had been in hiding she returned; she was caught and shot.

Boder:
Oh! The mother was shot...Now where is the cousin of your wife?

Ostland:
The cousin is now in Munich, in Germany.

Boder:
Oh. What is she doing there?

Ostland:
She is there with another cousin. Also another daughter of the rabbi of Telsh was saved, hiding among Christians, and her cousin, the daughter of Mr. Salman, was also hiding among Christians.

Boder:
Well.

Ostland:
That is all that is left from the family.

Boder:
And where did you meet her?

Ostland:
Now on our return, I from Russia and she from Germany, we met in Vilna. Our coming to America and our marriage were arranged /a few words are not clear/...

Boder:
What do you mean by /interviewer attempts to repeat his Hebrew words/...?

Ostland:
... /it was arranged/ by relatives, by the family.

Boder:
So you met in Vilna. By accident or by arrangement?

Ostland:
She came...she came from Germany and I being in Vilna, hearing that the daughter of my teacher was saved...so I sent immediately /a letter?/ and brought her over to Vilna and kept her with me until the day of departure.

Boder:
And now she is here with you?

Ostland:
Yes.

Boder:
Have already any children?

Ostland:
No.

Boder:
Now tell me, is there anything else, that you think is important to preserve, to tell? /At this instant Ostland apparently insisted that no record be taken. He finally agreed to make some additional statements, provided his name is not disclosed Apprehension is obvious from the content of the subsequent remarks. Many DP's were reluctant to make anti-Russian statements, fearing a remote possibility of being handed over to Soviet authorities. On the other hand, the Baltic Christian DP's took, at least on most cases, a solid anti-Soviet stand and were reluctant to voice any criticism of the Nazis./

Boder:
We are making a short record of /and interview with/ a gentleman who does not want to give his name. And considering the importance of the episode we requested him to talk...Also: /the interviewer made the preceding statement in English and is now translating it into Yiddish so that Ostland may be assured of his "anonymity"/.

Mr. X:
When the evacuation of Polish citizens from Russia began, many Jews who were not Polish citizens had "naturally" a desire to join us and also to be evacuated to Poland, partly with the purpose to go to the Land of Israel, partly just to save themselves. /He constantly lowers his voice as if imparting dangerous secrets./

Boder:
Yes, well.

Mr. X:
Then, during the last winter, certain groups began to form with the purpose to travel ahead "stealing" the Soviet border into Poland.

Boder:
Yes.

Mr. X:
In one of the groups there were...

Boder:
/with a smile/ Talk a bit louder, go on.

Mr. X:
One of the groups consisted in part of yeshiva people also from Telsh, which were detained en route. The story as it was transmitted to us was like this: four automobiles with people who intended to "steal" the border, departed from Vilna. They were halted en route, fire was opened against the automobiles, the automobiles refused to stop. As a consequence of this shooting one person was killed instantly while sitting in the car, ten were wounded and all were caught and arrested.

Boder:
Talk a bit louder, go on...or get nearer to the microphone.

Mr. X:
Those apprehended who wanted to escape from Russia were tried as "political criminals."

Boder:
Yes.

Mr. X:
And they were sentenced "to Siberia."

Boder:
Yes. /a pause/

Mr. X:
And...

Boder:
Go on,..

Mr. X:
And by way of a remark, this caused a very heavy mood in the whole Jewish population in Lithuania which could not understand the meaning of such action of the Soviet government against the people who wanted to leave the country either for the land of Israel or for other purposes- and that they should be declared "political criminals", and be sentenced to Siberia.

Boder:
Oh...I have heard already about this. Did you also hear about the incident when an attempt was made to get them out by airplane? Did you hear about that? Another /case/...

Mr. X:
/He apparently shakes his head./

Boder:
You have not heard about it. Now...but the Russians did not try them as Jews, they tried them as people who wanted to depart against the law?

Mr. X:
/pause/ But the action was too grave...

Boder:
Oh, the sentence was too heavy...

Mr. X:
The sentence?

Boder:
Yes. /You mean/ they should have demonstrated a bit more understanding for human feelings and for a man's faith. About that you are right. /Pause/ Now then...This concludes part of an interview first with...

Ostland:
No, no /he apparently somehow understood the meaning of the interviewer's statement made in English/ this is no good. This episode was dragged in rather out of place...

Boder:
No, no, no...this....I will say it in Yiddish /after a pause the interviewer proceeds in Yiddish/. This is spool 126, which concludes at 19 points of the indicator, 19 minutes /continued in English/ Henoville, September the 13th, 1946.

--THIS IS THE END OF THE TEXT AS FOUND IN THE TRANSCRIBED VOLUME --